A Question About Gonjos

David · 6th October 2006, 07:16 PM

BTW, i love the swastika patern on that Javanese hilt.

Rick · 6th October 2006, 07:22 PM

Hi David , I believe it's a Maduran ukiran; sorry I didnt show it in its entirety.

I'm just not sure if this is the result of warangan; the Sumatran keris does not look heavily eroded enough for this to have ocurred .

simatua · 6th October 2006, 08:48 PM

Besides the fact that a replaced ganja not fits the blade,
imo one of the reasons can be the heat.
At first the ganja is made at fit size before "welded" to the blade.
During the welding of the ganja, compared with a lot of heat, the tension in the metal causes the lifted tail.
Also you see a lot of little round damages close to the peksi, because there is the center of the heat, and the place where the ganja is hammered to the blade.
Like i say just an opinion.

I got the idea of a friend who has a nice keris, afterwards gold was laid on the ganja, also compared with a lot of heat and tension in the material, wich caused
space between the blade and ganja

BluErf · 7th October 2006, 06:42 AM

I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade.

A similar case would be with katanas/wakizashis/tantos - the blade suspends in the sheath, supported by the habaki and the mouth of the scabbard,

Alam Shah · 8th October 2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade.

Agreed with BluErf comment, adding another...
In Javanese terms, this phenomenon is known as "Nyangkem Kodok". This might be due to age wear from years of ritual cleansing or improper treatment of the blade. Uneven heat treatment to one part of the blade was also thought to contribute to this effect.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2006, 06:23 AM

There are perhaps as many answers to this question as there are keris which display this feature.

In the two keris that Rick has shown, I would suggest that perhaps we are looking at two different cases with different causes.
In the first there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are looking at the effects of time.
Plain, simple erosion.

In the second, what I can see is a pretty substantial gonjo that does not display an unusual amount of erosion, moreover it is a fairly recent keris.

Possibly this gonjo was not very carefully fitted in the first place.

It does take a lot of time and effort to achieve a tight, neat fit of gonjo to blade, and if a keris being made to a price, the maker is not going to waste time on something that will not recompense him at an adequate rate for time spent.

This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching. When the gonjo was punched down, any imperfect fitting would show up by the gonjo lifting away from the blade. Another possibility would be that the tip of the gonjo has been subjected to force.

If this second keris belonged to me, and this opening bothered me, I would apply gentle heat to the gonjo with a propane torch, and tap it down to fit.

Yes, heat could cause a gonjo to distort, but how and when would this heat be applied?
When a blade is heat treated, the gonjo is not subjected to any heat at all.Gonjos are not welded into place, they are mechanically fixed.

Long term deflection, caused by the weight of the blade being suspended by the gonjo?

Perhaps some of our engineers could supply the figures that would tell us what sort of deflection we could expect and over what time period, taking into account such factors as the time that the blade was actually freely suspended, temperature variation, relief of stress when the blade was not suspended , or was withdrawn from the scabbard.

I am not saying that long term deflection could not occur, but I rather suspect that requirements for any noticeable amount of deflection to occur might be so extreme as to completely remove this cause from consideration.

drdavid · 9th October 2006, 09:39 PM

Dear Mr Maisey
could you explain this further.

Quote:

This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching.

It appears you are talking about different quality levels of manufacture but I don't understand the different techniques you are discussing.
cheers
Drd

6th October 2006, 07:22 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hi David , I believe it's a Maduran ukiran; sorry I didnt show it in its entirety. I'm just not sure if this is the result of warangan; the Sumatran keris does not look heavily eroded enough for this to have ocurred . Attached Images

6th October 2006, 08:48 PM	#3
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	lifted tail cause of the heat Besides the fact that a replaced ganja not fits the blade, imo one of the reasons can be the heat. At first the ganja is made at fit size before "welded" to the blade. During the welding of the ganja, compared with a lot of heat, the tension in the metal causes the lifted tail. Also you see a lot of little round damages close to the peksi, because there is the center of the heat, and the place where the ganja is hammered to the blade. Like i say just an opinion. I got the idea of a friend who has a nice keris, afterwards gold was laid on the ganja, also compared with a lot of heat and tension in the material, wich caused space between the blade and ganja

6th October 2006, 07:16 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	BTW, i love the swastika patern on that Javanese hilt.

7th October 2006, 06:42 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade. A similar case would be with katanas/wakizashis/tantos - the blade suspends in the sheath, supported by the habaki and the mouth of the scabbard,

9th October 2006, 06:23 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	There are perhaps as many answers to this question as there are keris which display this feature. In the two keris that Rick has shown, I would suggest that perhaps we are looking at two different cases with different causes. In the first there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are looking at the effects of time. Plain, simple erosion. In the second, what I can see is a pretty substantial gonjo that does not display an unusual amount of erosion, moreover it is a fairly recent keris. Possibly this gonjo was not very carefully fitted in the first place. It does take a lot of time and effort to achieve a tight, neat fit of gonjo to blade, and if a keris being made to a price, the maker is not going to waste time on something that will not recompense him at an adequate rate for time spent. This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching. When the gonjo was punched down, any imperfect fitting would show up by the gonjo lifting away from the blade. Another possibility would be that the tip of the gonjo has been subjected to force. If this second keris belonged to me, and this opening bothered me, I would apply gentle heat to the gonjo with a propane torch, and tap it down to fit. Yes, heat could cause a gonjo to distort, but how and when would this heat be applied? When a blade is heat treated, the gonjo is not subjected to any heat at all.Gonjos are not welded into place, they are mechanically fixed. Long term deflection, caused by the weight of the blade being suspended by the gonjo? Perhaps some of our engineers could supply the figures that would tell us what sort of deflection we could expect and over what time period, taking into account such factors as the time that the blade was actually freely suspended, temperature variation, relief of stress when the blade was not suspended , or was withdrawn from the scabbard. I am not saying that long term deflection could not occur, but I rather suspect that requirements for any noticeable amount of deflection to occur might be so extreme as to completely remove this cause from consideration.