New book: Arms and Armor from Iran

Ian · 23rd September 2006, 06:09 PM

Thanks Rivkin for the explanation of controversies surrounding the historical influences of Persia and what constitutes things Persian. Without wishing to set aside what you have said, I think we need to view this new book in terms of its stated objectives and the real contributions that it is making to understanding weapons, albeit within a cultural and political context.

We are all free here to express differences of opinion and perspective, but I think we need to maintain our focus on the weapons and what this book has to contribute in that regard.

Ian.

S.Al-Anizi · 23rd September 2006, 08:42 PM

Hmmmm, I was reluctant to join this thread, but I think its time.

Ive known Manouchehr for a very long time, since I entered into the sword collecting world. I also have to say that my experience with him was a very bad one. I also disagreed with him, like Rivkin did, on many historical points and facts. However, besides all that, I really believe that Manoucher, has put his blood into this effort. He has been working on it tirelessly for years, traveling to and fro to areas of field research, examining museum inventories, manuscripts, old books, experts in the field, and completed this complilation.

I understand that history cannot be separated from antique weaponry, and that some will disagree with Mr. Khorasani on historical points, but Im sure that his effort in this compilation is great, and the information he provided is priceless to those whom are interested in the field of Persian weaponry.

Tim Simmons · 23rd September 2006, 09:07 PM

This book sound quite a tome. It is a little pricey. Can anyone say how comprehensive it is, or is it another book that just concentrates on the luxury artifacts.

ariel · 23rd September 2006, 10:32 PM

Rivkin has put his finger right on the point: the foreword for this book is indeed written by Prof. Kaveh Farroukh and it is everything Rivkin described. In general, there is " an uniterrupted evolution of military arts, technology and tradition... ( from)... the original Kurgan-Aryan arrivals into Persia".
In short:
Persian culture spreads from the Ukraine to the end of the civilized Earth ( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again); Europe owes Persia an enormous cultural and military debt for stopping the Ottomans and this debt was never acknowledged; Persian recovery from the crushing defeat at Chaldiran was due to Abbas' " military genius" ( the fact that Sir Robert Shirley took over the re-organization of Persian military is conveniently forgotten); Nader Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians.
There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias.
There is national pride and then there is jingoism.

S.Al-Anizi · 23rd September 2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again)

Indeed

tsubame1 · 23rd September 2006, 11:33 PM

We all know the way Ariel, Rivkin and others disagree about vision of history
with the author. It's not my forte, so I don't take any of the two sides.
But I've read, too, alot about how all the forumites agrees on Khorasani
bloody efforts to give to the sword community a book with new information
and items about persian weapons.
Now, I'm used to frictions due to different/conflictual cultural stances and
background because all the world is the same.
Japan/China/Korea can be compared to Israel/Russia/Iran.
Wise men can see the wrong and the right in both stances.
What hurts me is that this book is ruthless destroyed at the eyes of the
readers of this forum *without having said a word about its contents*.

People here reports bad experiences with Mr. Khorasani. I can't give names
but at least two great italian collectors (one of which is publishing his second
book) and a whole *Chatolic* religious order had very nice experience with
him and will not be afraid of interacting with him again in the future, as they'll
do for sure. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion according to how he
approached/perceived Mr. Khorasani and "his persian history".

Now, is everybody able to discuss the *contents* of the book instead of
his writer or history of Iran ? The above mentioned italian collector/writer is
absolutely astonished about the great quality of the information,
documentation and pictures found in the book at the point to present me a
copy and he's not a newcomer. He find it a bargain in quality/price terms.
But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words.

And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

Gt Obach · 24th September 2006, 02:24 AM

the book is a very good one.. .. it has lots of valuable information...
the author is Iranian and has produced a work from his perspective ( as all authors do )

as with all books... there maybe some small rough areas but on the whole it is a valuable contribution to the arms world..

its obvious that there are some characters that have their own view points/bias maybe even an agenda... who knows? but i can tell you that its about time people start making a positive effort..

it gets a little on my nerves... seeing some of the off color remarks..

its alway a good policy to treat people the way you would like to be treated.... ... and then everyone can come away with a good experience..

Greg

Rick · 24th September 2006, 02:33 AM

Thank you Greg and Carlo.

I would think it very unfortunate if an entire forum and its membership were to be judged by the personal opinions expressed by a few of its members.

Would you have us censor their opinions for just such a reason ?

Jeff D · 24th September 2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

its alway a good policy to treat people the way you would like to be treated.... ... and then everyone can come away with a good experience..

Greg

I agree 100%.

I give a heart felt congratulations to Manoucher on his monumental work. And I hope he gets the same respect and encouragement that he maintains for other works on the forum he moderates.

Jeff

Andrew · 24th September 2006, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Now, is everybody able to discuss the *contents* of the book instead of
his writer or history of Iran ?

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content. Am I incorrect? I don't have my copy yet, so I really don't know. If there is no historical content then I agree the discussion of Manouchehr's historical perspective is off-topic and I will prevent it from proceeding any further. Otherwise, I will simply continue to insist the discussion continue in a civil manner.

Quote:

But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words.

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

Quote:

And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

Frankly, this is cryptic and unecessary.

Rivkin · 24th September 2006, 04:35 AM

Gentlemen,

It is no secret that there are two forums and there is some friction between the two. I am not going to blame either side for this, in fact I believe it has everything to do with the orientation of the forums (swordforum - swordmakers, reenactors and martial artists, vikingsword - more of a collector's crowd). True, some of my words, especially those in a private correspondance with vikingsword members, were harsh, and I apologized before the people whom I believe to hurt undeservingly; it is also true that in the past on swordforum I was treated with vile insults, and even viler ones were mailed to me through pms.

I propose we do not lament the horrible facts of criticism - if my words disgust you, so should have been the words about Tirri, me and others on swordforum. Instead, we should agree to disagree, may be tone down our words a notch and realize that even though we may dislike each other's opinions, there is no problem at all. When we discussed Tirri I said myself that having a published book is better than having none at all, and Manoucher's book is probably going to be the Book, whatever errors or biases might be in it. We all have our ideas and ideology - my militant atheism, islam of another person or zionism of someone else can all be reflected in our work - this does not mean we should stop the presses, it means that we should be free to openly discuss and critique them. Yes it can get unpleasant, but what a good argument among friends.
And finally there are two reasons for me voicing my criticism - first I did so in my private messages, and I believe that I should tell to many what I tell to one.Another one is that while I have disagreed with Manoucher's posts and that of his reviewers and co-members at CAIS I have found no one on this or other forums offering an alternative opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, I am trying to show the alternative. I believe it is actually better for me to do so before the reading (which I am looking forward to), because it is not a twisting of his words or nit-picking on his creation, it is a statement of two completely different approaches to the study of iranian military, history and culture.

Finally, congratulations to Manoucher on the publication; I understand the whole enormous pain of bringing such a work to life, and I am happy that it is out there.
However, in my personal experience I learned more from criticism of my work than from its praise, even though it was unpleasant; I don't think that the only reaction one should expect on any published work is a madly happiness and stories about old men .... Ok, here the advice to tone it down a notch comes in handy

.

tsubame1 · 24th September 2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

Don't take me wrong. He's not joing in ANY forum because he's old an busy,
not because of is EAAF or SFI or anything else.
Being well into the '70 and still working (for passion) gives you little chance to chat or to use internet other then for E-mails and a few researches...

tsubame1 · 24th September 2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content.

Qarachuri is well historically described there, according to the one that have both my copy and enough knowledge to say this.

Andrew · 24th September 2006, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again)....

...Nadir Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians.

There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias.
There is national pride and then there is jingoism.

And there is civil, constructive criticism and then there is gratuitous, sarcastic and rude editorial commentary.

23rd September 2006, 06:09 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	Thanks Rivkin for the explanation of controversies surrounding the historical influences of Persia and what constitutes things Persian. Without wishing to set aside what you have said, I think we need to view this new book in terms of its stated objectives and the real contributions that it is making to understanding weapons, albeit within a cultural and political context. We are all free here to express differences of opinion and perspective, but I think we need to maintain our focus on the weapons and what this book has to contribute in that regard. Ian.

23rd September 2006, 08:42 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hmmmm, I was reluctant to join this thread, but I think its time. Ive known Manouchehr for a very long time, since I entered into the sword collecting world. I also have to say that my experience with him was a very bad one. I also disagreed with him, like Rivkin did, on many historical points and facts. However, besides all that, I really believe that Manoucher, has put his blood into this effort. He has been working on it tirelessly for years, traveling to and fro to areas of field research, examining museum inventories, manuscripts, old books, experts in the field, and completed this complilation. I understand that history cannot be separated from antique weaponry, and that some will disagree with Mr. Khorasani on historical points, but Im sure that his effort in this compilation is great, and the information he provided is priceless to those whom are interested in the field of Persian weaponry.

23rd September 2006, 09:07 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	This book sound quite a tome. It is a little pricey. Can anyone say how comprehensive it is, or is it another book that just concentrates on the luxury artifacts.

23rd September 2006, 10:32 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rivkin has put his finger right on the point: the foreword for this book is indeed written by Prof. Kaveh Farroukh and it is everything Rivkin described. In general, there is " an uniterrupted evolution of military arts, technology and tradition... ( from)... the original Kurgan-Aryan arrivals into Persia". In short: Persian culture spreads from the Ukraine to the end of the civilized Earth ( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again); Europe owes Persia an enormous cultural and military debt for stopping the Ottomans and this debt was never acknowledged; Persian recovery from the crushing defeat at Chaldiran was due to Abbas' " military genius" ( the fact that Sir Robert Shirley took over the re-organization of Persian military is conveniently forgotten); Nader Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians. There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias. There is national pride and then there is jingoism.

23rd September 2006, 11:33 PM	#6
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	We all know the way Ariel, Rivkin and others disagree about vision of history with the author. It's not my forte, so I don't take any of the two sides. But I've read, too, alot about how all the forumites agrees on Khorasani bloody efforts to give to the sword community a book with new information and items about persian weapons. Now, I'm used to frictions due to different/conflictual cultural stances and background because all the world is the same. Japan/China/Korea can be compared to Israel/Russia/Iran. Wise men can see the wrong and the right in both stances. What hurts me is that this book is ruthless destroyed at the eyes of the readers of this forum without having said a word about its contents. People here reports bad experiences with Mr. Khorasani. I can't give names but at least two great italian collectors (one of which is publishing his second book) and a whole Chatolic religious order had very nice experience with him and will not be afraid of interacting with him again in the future, as they'll do for sure. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion according to how he approached/perceived Mr. Khorasani and "his persian history". Now, is everybody able to discuss the contents of the book instead of his writer or history of Iran ? The above mentioned italian collector/writer is absolutely astonished about the great quality of the information, documentation and pictures found in the book at the point to present me a copy and he's not a newcomer. He find it a bargain in quality/price terms. But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words. And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

24th September 2006, 02:24 AM	#7
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	the book is a very good one.. .. it has lots of valuable information... the author is Iranian and has produced a work from his perspective ( as all authors do ) as with all books... there maybe some small rough areas but on the whole it is a valuable contribution to the arms world.. its obvious that there are some characters that have their own view points/bias maybe even an agenda... who knows? but i can tell you that its about time people start making a positive effort.. it gets a little on my nerves... seeing some of the off color remarks.. its alway a good policy to treat people the way you would like to be treated.... ... and then everyone can come away with a good experience.. Greg

24th September 2006, 02:33 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Thank you Greg and Carlo. I would think it very unfortunate if an entire forum and its membership were to be judged by the personal opinions expressed by a few of its members. Would you have us censor their opinions for just such a reason ?

24th September 2006, 04:35 AM	#11
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gentlemen, It is no secret that there are two forums and there is some friction between the two. I am not going to blame either side for this, in fact I believe it has everything to do with the orientation of the forums (swordforum - swordmakers, reenactors and martial artists, vikingsword - more of a collector's crowd). True, some of my words, especially those in a private correspondance with vikingsword members, were harsh, and I apologized before the people whom I believe to hurt undeservingly; it is also true that in the past on swordforum I was treated with vile insults, and even viler ones were mailed to me through pms. I propose we do not lament the horrible facts of criticism - if my words disgust you, so should have been the words about Tirri, me and others on swordforum. Instead, we should agree to disagree, may be tone down our words a notch and realize that even though we may dislike each other's opinions, there is no problem at all. When we discussed Tirri I said myself that having a published book is better than having none at all, and Manoucher's book is probably going to be the Book, whatever errors or biases might be in it. We all have our ideas and ideology - my militant atheism, islam of another person or zionism of someone else can all be reflected in our work - this does not mean we should stop the presses, it means that we should be free to openly discuss and critique them. Yes it can get unpleasant, but what a good argument among friends. And finally there are two reasons for me voicing my criticism - first I did so in my private messages, and I believe that I should tell to many what I tell to one.Another one is that while I have disagreed with Manoucher's posts and that of his reviewers and co-members at CAIS I have found no one on this or other forums offering an alternative opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, I am trying to show the alternative. I believe it is actually better for me to do so before the reading (which I am looking forward to), because it is not a twisting of his words or nit-picking on his creation, it is a statement of two completely different approaches to the study of iranian military, history and culture. Finally, congratulations to Manoucher on the publication; I understand the whole enormous pain of bringing such a work to life, and I am happy that it is out there. However, in my personal experience I learned more from criticism of my work than from its praise, even though it was unpleasant; I don't think that the only reaction one should expect on any published work is a madly happiness and stories about old men .... Ok, here the advice to tone it down a notch comes in handy .