Moro kris mystery

mross · 20th September 2006, 06:59 PM

I took a chance on this;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

The price was low enough as was my bid that the not so great photos did not deter me. (It usually does). Seller advertised as a 20th C battle kris. Well I got it yesterday. It sure is a mystery to me. The gangya is one piece and not very will defined. But it has two baca-baca and is very tight and solid. It has a very sharp edge and appears to have evidence of a hardned edge but does NOT appear to be laminated. There are signs of it having been forged. On one hand I would say tourist piece but the baca-baca and the possible hardened edge say no. What are your thoughts? The gangya is very poorly done. Right now this is the best I can do for photos. I have no idea what this is.

David · 20th September 2006, 09:57 PM

Well, your right, we would be able to tell a whole lot from those photos.

But it does look to me as if the baca-baca, ferulle and other silver work on the kakatu are new additions so it probably doesn't mean a much in the final determination of original intention and quality of this piece. From the bad photosit does give the impression of a working sword, not a tourist piece. Just because it doesn't have a seperate gangya doesn't mean it wasn't made to cut people up.

AFAIK Moro kris were still made with the intention of being a weapon far past the Cato imposed 1930s seperate gangya date. It does appear to me though that there was a serious drop off in the quality of Moro swords after the 1930s. Send us some better pics when you get a chance.

kai · 21st September 2006, 12:50 AM

Could this be a Lumad version/interpretation of a Moro kris? I certainly would like to see a decent pic of the gangya area but I've seen quite a few examples with that broad lower gangya and atypical file work (which I'd guess wouldn't be done by a traditional Moro bladesmith). Bagobo/T'boli/Tagakaolo pieces can vary widely in quality - from twisted core examples to poor ones merely clobbered together...

BTW, what's the blade's maximum thickness at the gangya area?

Are the clamps and other hilt fittings made from aluminium? I agree that this is most likely a recent revision/addition.

Regards,
Kai

mross · 21st September 2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Could this be a Lumad version/interpretation of a Moro kris? I certainly would like to see a decent pic of the gangya area but I've seen quite a few examples with that broad lower gangya and atypical file work (which I'd guess wouldn't be done by a traditional Moro bladesmith). Bagobo/T'boli/Tagakaolo pieces can vary widely in quality - from twisted core examples to poor ones merely clobbered together...

BTW, what's the blade's maximum thickness at the gangya area?

Are the clamps and other hilt fittings made from aluminium? I agree that this is most likely a recent revision/addition.

Regards,
Kai

Kai, I have to look into the Lumad question, as I know nothing about them. But one impression I had was a copy; I was thinking a Chinese copy since I have seen some crude copies of nihonto. The point does not look right for Moro kris, but it does not look altered either. I can't decide if I would call it crude or amateurish. One other thing the handle is a very crude version/copy of a kakatua
I think the version/interpretation may be right on! Someone went to a great deal of trouble with ornamenting the handle and the clamps. I do think they are aluminum, and they show little signs of wear compared to the blade so I agree it was added much later. I'll measure the thickness and get back to you, I'm at work and don't have the sword with me, but it is very thin compared to my other Moro swords. I am not sure how the seller determined age, perhaps by the one-piece gangya. Just looking at the black rust on the blade and the wear, it gives the appearance of being old. I can’t explain why, but I like it. It feels like a weapon, not a wall hanger

mross · 22nd September 2006, 04:52 PM

Here are a few photos. They are not great either. I only had the camera in my phone to take them with. One day I WILL get a digital camera, really!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

BTW, what's the blade's maximum thickness at the gangya area?

It is about .5 cm at the thickest part of the gangya.

So any ideas?

kai · 23rd September 2006, 12:22 AM

Quote:

It is about .5 cm at the thickest part of the gangya.

Well, that's really thin - any distal taper? It's hard to tell from the pics but workmanship does seem to be lacking a bit. I tend to view this more as a repro rather than a genuine later example but you're the judge. I'd guess all parts are post WW2, possibly not even vintage. Hope others will chime in, too, since I'm definitely no authority...

Regards,
Kai

David · 23rd September 2006, 02:16 AM

I am afraid that from these photos i've got a better idea of what your rug in your living room looks like than i do this kris.

Try shooting it outdoors, preferrably not in direct sunlight (overcast days are great. Try to keep the focus on the blade, not the background.

I agree with Kai that this is probably a post WW2 kris, but i don't think that necessarily makes it a "repro". Is the blade edge-sharp?

kai · 24th September 2006, 02:45 AM

Quote:

this is probably a post WW2 kris, but i don't think that necessarily makes it a "repro". Is the blade edge-sharp?

With repro I didn't meant a completely non-functional sword which was never sharpened - 5mm is enough to allow for some cutting ability, for sure. A light etch may tell wether the blade was tempered at all.

That being said, I tend to think of blades as repros if they haven't been produced by the traditional bladesmithing techniques. For example monosteel (possibly from leaf springs) just hammered into shape or even mere stock removal.

I have one kris which I believe to be of Lumad origin which has a (separate) gangya over 10mm thick. And the same is also true for all my Moro kris. A much thinner gangya seems to imply non-adherance to traditional bladesmithing standards or possibly ignorance by the smith (something you routinely see in examples coming out of Luzon, for example). OTOH, it may be difficult to apply objective criteria to differentiate between a successive devolution of bladesmithing skills/knowledge (which obviously happened inside Moro culture, too) and applying non-traditional techniques...

Regards,
Kai

mross · 25th September 2006, 07:22 PM

There is not much if any of a distal taper. It has a raised central rib that is roughly the same .5 cm. It is very sharp. I would say easily as sharp as the other Moro swords I have. I need to etch it to be sure but it does seem to have signs of a hardened edge. I don't see any signs of being laminated, so possibly a leaf spring as. it is forged and there are numerous forgeing flaws throughout the blade. As for the photos until I can get a real digital camera with a adjustable focal length,this is as good as it gets. It was a camera in my phone.

One thing I find intresting is the elephant trunk looks more keris like then kris like.

Ian · 26th September 2006, 02:41 PM

mross:

The style of this kris suggests work by a non-Moro craftsman. I have a couple of similar "kris" coming from the Bagobo/Kaolo in the Davao City area that were made in imitation of kris but obviously not from the original culture (or at least from a traditional craftsman). The kakatua hilt on this one is also a common form from the same general area.

I suspect second half of 20th C. from the Davao City area.

Ian.

mross · 26th September 2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

mross:

The style of this kris suggests work by a non-Moro craftsman. I have a couple of similar "kris" coming from the Bagobo/Kaolo in the Davao City area that were made in imitation of kris but obviously not from the original culture (or at least from a traditional craftsman). The kakatua hilt on this one is also a common form from the same general area.

I suspect second half of 20th C. from the Davao City area.

Ian.

Ian,
I agree not Moro. Could you post some photos of yours? How did you arrive at an age?

mross · 27th September 2006, 06:41 PM

I have been going over this sword a little more. My wife says I'm like a chicken with it's egg. I must correct myself. There is a definite distal taper. I was very surprised when I finally noticed it. While the craftmanship appears crude there is some thought in this. What I think we know; not Moro most likely from "Bagobo/Kaolo in the Davao City" or "Lumad" unless that is the same thing. My only real question is the age. Seller said 20th C, most estimates here concur. There is a fair amount of black rust on it that makes me think there is some age. I would agree 20th C but early 20th C. that would make it around 100 years or so which would be consistant with the black rust. I currently don't know of any process to artifically create black rust. It is tried alot in Nihonto land but it never looks "right". OK, I think that's enough from me on this.
Can anyone post some pictures of kris from this area?

Ian · 27th September 2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Ian,
I agree not Moro. Could you post some photos of yours? How did you arrive at an age?

mross:

I picked up my examples in Manila from a dealer whom I have known for quite some time and have developed an "understanding." He is now quite open about his sources and will tell me where he gets his pieces and there age as best he knows.

I picked up a Bagobo/Kaolo kris (they are part of the group of Lumad tribes -- non-Christian, non-Muslim) from him in a typical Bagobo-adorned scabbard with lots of beads, etc. and he told me these were coming out of Davao City and were made post-1960.

I have also been told that the craftsmen give these kris to kids to wear around the village for a while so that they appear "aged."

Here is a link to a thread on the old UBB Forum which has a couple of examples of Lumad kris: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001448.html

And here is the Bagobo kris that I picked up in Manila:

Ian.

mross · 27th September 2006, 10:13 PM

Ian,
Thank you so much for that. It solves the mystery!!!
Mine look like a cross between Bagobo kris (the handle shape is identical) and the Kaulo kris (the blade shape and ganyga) from that old thread. Very cool.

Are any of these swords laminated?

Ian · 27th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Ian, ...

Are any of these swords laminated?

I think some of the older Lumad kris blades were laminated, although those may have been converted Moro pieces. The Bagobo certainly made laminated blades for their own traditional weapons, so I think it is likely that at least some of these kris had laminated blades also.

Ian.

kai · 28th September 2006, 02:29 AM

My example is definitely laminated - I'll try to take pics...

Regards,
Kai

philkid · 30th September 2006, 10:17 AM

I think it came from me originally. I would also say it is from the bagobo people. I also have one here from the tiboli. It also has a separate gangya but the gangya is made from copper.

kai · 30th September 2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

I also have one here from the tiboli. It also has a separate gangya but the gangya is made from copper.

Pics, pics, pics - pretty please!!!

Regards,
Kai

20th September 2006, 06:59 PM	#1
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Moro kris mystery I took a chance on this; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1 The price was low enough as was my bid that the not so great photos did not deter me. (It usually does). Seller advertised as a 20th C battle kris. Well I got it yesterday. It sure is a mystery to me. The gangya is one piece and not very will defined. But it has two baca-baca and is very tight and solid. It has a very sharp edge and appears to have evidence of a hardned edge but does NOT appear to be laminated. There are signs of it having been forged. On one hand I would say tourist piece but the baca-baca and the possible hardened edge say no. What are your thoughts? The gangya is very poorly done. Right now this is the best I can do for photos. I have no idea what this is.

27th September 2006, 10:13 PM	#14
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Mystery No More Ian, Thank you so much for that. It solves the mystery!!! Mine look like a cross between Bagobo kris (the handle shape is identical) and the Kaulo kris (the blade shape and ganyga) from that old thread. Very cool. Are any of these swords laminated?

30th September 2006, 10:17 AM	#17
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	I think it came from me originally. I would also say it is from the bagobo people. I also have one here from the tiboli. It also has a separate gangya but the gangya is made from copper. Last edited by philkid; 30th September 2006 at 05:10 PM.

20th September 2006, 09:57 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Well, your right, we would be able to tell a whole lot from those photos. But it does look to me as if the baca-baca, ferulle and other silver work on the kakatu are new additions so it probably doesn't mean a much in the final determination of original intention and quality of this piece. From the bad photosit does give the impression of a working sword, not a tourist piece. Just because it doesn't have a seperate gangya doesn't mean it wasn't made to cut people up. AFAIK Moro kris were still made with the intention of being a weapon far past the Cato imposed 1930s seperate gangya date. It does appear to me though that there was a serious drop off in the quality of Moro swords after the 1930s. Send us some better pics when you get a chance.

21st September 2006, 12:50 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Could this be a Lumad version/interpretation of a Moro kris? I certainly would like to see a decent pic of the gangya area but I've seen quite a few examples with that broad lower gangya and atypical file work (which I'd guess wouldn't be done by a traditional Moro bladesmith). Bagobo/T'boli/Tagakaolo pieces can vary widely in quality - from twisted core examples to poor ones merely clobbered together... BTW, what's the blade's maximum thickness at the gangya area? Are the clamps and other hilt fittings made from aluminium? I agree that this is most likely a recent revision/addition. Regards, Kai

23rd September 2006, 02:16 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I am afraid that from these photos i've got a better idea of what your rug in your living room looks like than i do this kris. Try shooting it outdoors, preferrably not in direct sunlight (overcast days are great. Try to keep the focus on the blade, not the background. I agree with Kai that this is probably a post WW2 kris, but i don't think that necessarily makes it a "repro". Is the blade edge-sharp?

25th September 2006, 07:22 PM	#9
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	There is not much if any of a distal taper. It has a raised central rib that is roughly the same .5 cm. It is very sharp. I would say easily as sharp as the other Moro swords I have. I need to etch it to be sure but it does seem to have signs of a hardened edge. I don't see any signs of being laminated, so possibly a leaf spring as. it is forged and there are numerous forgeing flaws throughout the blade. As for the photos until I can get a real digital camera with a adjustable focal length,this is as good as it gets. It was a camera in my phone. One thing I find intresting is the elephant trunk looks more keris like then kris like.

26th September 2006, 02:41 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	mross: The style of this kris suggests work by a non-Moro craftsman. I have a couple of similar "kris" coming from the Bagobo/Kaolo in the Davao City area that were made in imitation of kris but obviously not from the original culture (or at least from a traditional craftsman). The kakatua hilt on this one is also a common form from the same general area. I suspect second half of 20th C. from the Davao City area. Ian.

27th September 2006, 06:41 PM	#12
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I have been going over this sword a little more. My wife says I'm like a chicken with it's egg. I must correct myself. There is a definite distal taper. I was very surprised when I finally noticed it. While the craftmanship appears crude there is some thought in this. What I think we know; not Moro most likely from "Bagobo/Kaolo in the Davao City" or "Lumad" unless that is the same thing. My only real question is the age. Seller said 20th C, most estimates here concur. There is a fair amount of black rust on it that makes me think there is some age. I would agree 20th C but early 20th C. that would make it around 100 years or so which would be consistant with the black rust. I currently don't know of any process to artifically create black rust. It is tried alot in Nihonto land but it never looks "right". OK, I think that's enough from me on this. Can anyone post some pictures of kris from this area?

28th September 2006, 02:29 AM	#16
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	My example is definitely laminated - I'll try to take pics... Regards, Kai