Arabian Sayf

Rick · 17th September 2006, 02:59 AM

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

spiral · 17th September 2006, 04:23 AM

Nice enough blade & I especialy like the handle, but sadley the belt hanger fittings look much coarser & more recent than the scabbard throat, blade & handle to my eye though.

Britania can have various relevant meanings to this piece I would think.

Generaly Britannia silver is an alloy of silver containing 95.84% silver, with the balance usually copper.

But rather like the terms Eastern, Nickel or German silver, Britannia silver should probably be distinguished from Britannia metal, a pewter like or white metal alloy contaning no silver.

Spiral

S.Al-Anizi · 17th September 2006, 11:08 AM

I always thought this one was afghani, with a persian blade (the swivel on the pommel). It doesnt strike me as arabian (peninsula) at all. The belt on the scabbard is also very un-arabian, arabs (of arabia) usually wore their swords using a rope of silk and gold/silver thread, or cheaper, just plain cotton. Not a belt.

Although it could be a syrian saif, more likely. With the belt (they used belts)

Lew · 17th September 2006, 02:09 PM

$14,500 sure thing I'll buy two of them especially when you do not get to see what the entire blade looks like

Lew

Ian · 17th September 2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

Yep. No bids either.

Ian.

S.Al-Anizi · 17th September 2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Yep. No bids either.

Ian.

I agree, this is not worth that much.

Battara · 17th September 2006, 06:54 PM

Love the mounts but the blade - blehhh!

ham · 17th September 2006, 07:06 PM

This is a typical Hyderabad Arab remount of Persian work. Interesting history to this group, they are also know for their matchlock guns.
It is silver mounted, 'Eastern' or 'coin' silver are the terms generally used for this type.

Ham

S.Al-Anizi · 17th September 2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

This is a typical Hyderabad Arab remount of Persian work. Interesting history to this group, they are also know for their matchlock guns.
It is silver mounted, 'Eastern' or 'coin' silver are the terms generally used for this type.

Ham

Well the silverwork is not arabian quality.

ariel · 17th September 2006, 09:40 PM

Interesting...
If you think it is "North Indian", could it be Uzbeki? They loved tuquoises.
I do not recall seeing "camel head" pommels on N. Indian/Central Asian swords. Any examples?

ALEX · 20th September 2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

Rick · 20th September 2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

Alex, this particular sword IMO is not worth what was asked ;from the comments received so far it appears to me a remounted/married piece which I interpret as not having the original scabbard and mounts. Aside from that; as you say; it would be foolish to risk so much money on a few poor quality pictures .
For this kind of money one would again IMO need to have a personal inspection by an aknowledged expert in the field.

Can we discount that this piece could also be a forgery?

ham · 20th September 2006, 04:36 PM

What sloth, gentlemen.

Has any of you bothered to look into the history of Hyderabad, or for that matter, even located it on a map? UZBEKI? For goodness sake.

Indolent and unsupported opinions... the study of antique arms and armour requires one to be informed historically as well as geographically. Pray open a book once in awhile.

Ham

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2006, 05:17 PM

I like it. I could live with it but I would only think of paying a price around that figure divided by 15

. Then maybe persuaded higher.

B.I · 20th September 2006, 05:49 PM

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

ham · 23rd September 2006, 04:05 AM

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

17th September 2006, 02:59 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Now That's CRAZY !! 14.5 K for that ?!?!? This is ridiculous !

17th September 2006, 04:23 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice enough blade & I especialy like the handle, but sadley the belt hanger fittings look much coarser & more recent than the scabbard throat, blade & handle to my eye though. Britania can have various relevant meanings to this piece I would think. Generaly Britannia silver is an alloy of silver containing 95.84% silver, with the balance usually copper. But rather like the terms Eastern, Nickel or German silver, Britannia silver should probably be distinguished from Britannia metal, a pewter like or white metal alloy contaning no silver. Spiral

17th September 2006, 11:08 AM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	I always thought this one was afghani, with a persian blade (the swivel on the pommel). It doesnt strike me as arabian (peninsula) at all. The belt on the scabbard is also very un-arabian, arabs (of arabia) usually wore their swords using a rope of silk and gold/silver thread, or cheaper, just plain cotton. Not a belt. Although it could be a syrian saif, more likely. With the belt (they used belts)

17th September 2006, 02:09 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	$14,500 sure thing I'll buy two of them especially when you do not get to see what the entire blade looks like Lew

17th September 2006, 06:54 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,315	Love the mounts but the blade - blehhh!

17th September 2006, 07:06 PM	#8
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	This is a typical Hyderabad Arab remount of Persian work. Interesting history to this group, they are also know for their matchlock guns. It is silver mounted, 'Eastern' or 'coin' silver are the terms generally used for this type. Ham

17th September 2006, 09:40 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting... If you think it is "North Indian", could it be Uzbeki? They loved tuquoises. I do not recall seeing "camel head" pommels on N. Indian/Central Asian swords. Any examples?

20th September 2006, 04:36 PM	#13
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	What sloth, gentlemen. Has any of you bothered to look into the history of Hyderabad, or for that matter, even located it on a map? UZBEKI? For goodness sake. Indolent and unsupported opinions... the study of antique arms and armour requires one to be informed historically as well as geographically. Pray open a book once in awhile. Ham

20th September 2006, 05:17 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,880	I like it. I could live with it but I would only think of paying a price around that figure divided by 15 . Then maybe persuaded higher.

20th September 2006, 05:49 PM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion. however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading. ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree. there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period. robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation. there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures. this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints. yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected. i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question. as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.