Fighting with keris

David · 6th September 2006, 06:22 PM

Very interesting question Bram, and one i am sure will raise some serious debate.

I am not with my books right now, but i believe Stone makes reference to learning keris fighting moves from a prince of Jawa. Though some of his keris info is suspect, this reference actually names the prince and i can't see why he would make it up. Early Chinese contact brought back reports of the Javanese using the keris as a weapon back in the 15th century. People have argued these reports because the Chinese also made derogatory remarks about the Javanese as well. I am not sure that those remarks should necessarily negate the substance of the weapon use reports however. It does seem to me that the keris was at least used as a weapon in Jawa at one time. The exact point at which that changed may be very difficult to track.

Kiai Carita · 6th September 2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Very interesting question Bram, and one i am sure will raise some serious debate.

I am not with my books right now, but i believe Stone makes reference to learning keris fighting moves from a prince of Jawa. Though some of his keris info is suspect, this reference actually names the prince and i can't see why he would make it up. Early Chinese contact brought back reports of the Javanese using the keris as a weapon back in the 15th century. People have argued these reports because the Chinese also made derogatory remarks about the Javanese as well. I am not sure that those remarks should necessarily negate the substance of the weapon use reports however. It does seem to me that the keris was at least used as a weapon in Jawa at one time. The exact point at which that changed may be very difficult to track.

Thanks for the response, David...

I have argued that the weapons described by Ma Huan, who also described the indegenous people as 'devils', although could be, should not necessarily be keris. Personally I think that keris in Jawa was never intended to be used for fighting. That is why the Jawa keris is only sharpened once and there is no anual sharpening ceremony. Instead of sharpened, the Jawa keris was ritually examined, bathed in flowers and cleaned, and prayed on, and smoked with incense, and always put higher that the feet...

Some other curiouse facts related to this matter: the Malays wear their keris in the front, ready to draw, while in Jawa wearing it this way (sikep, I believe the position is called) indicates the wearer has left the worldly and is in pursuit of the spiritual. In wayang kulit, several gods wear their keris this sikep way under the folds of their Arabic jubah.

If indeed it did happen, does the keris' 'dissarming' seems to have began sometime during the cumbling of Majapahit and the emerging of Mataram. Does anyone think that this might have anything to do with the work of the Wali in spreading Islam in Jawa? I am truly interested in the opinions of the members of this forum.

Hormat,
Bram.

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 01:31 AM

I find this an intensely interesting subject.

In the Nagakertagama (circa 1365) , canto 54, stanza 2, verse 4:-

"Exterminated were the animals,thrusted, lanced, crissed,dying without a gasp."

also:-

"The criss, a token of manfulness has its place at the front"---this was in reference to the progress of the king.

In the Pararaton ( circa 1480-1600) there is a description of an exhibition of keris play as an entertainment.

When Sultan Agung attacked Batavia (1628), his principle weapons were firearms. In fact, although his levies were for the most part pikemen, all his military actions relied heavily on firearms.

By the time of the Kartosuro troubles roughly 100 years later, firearms were common amongst the general populace.

In 1811 Raffles was appointed Governor of Jawa, and I think he took up his post in 1812. In his book "The History of Java" he mentions that the keris in Java at that time occupied the position that the small sword had occupied in Europe 50 years previous.

From the time of Kartosuro, European influence in Jawa, and European manipulation of the Javanese rulers and social system resulted in changes that were reflected in social norms and consciousness. During the Kartosuro period, and continuing through to arguably the Japanese occupation during WWII, Javanese society emphasised some elements of Javanese culture, and de-emphasised other elements, as a compensating measure for loss of power and identity under European domination.

The keris was in early Jawa a weapon, with many of the attributes of culturally significant weapons found in other cultures across the world, for instance, in the Viking sword. With its weapon function reduced by replacement with more effective and efficient weapons, its symbolic and iconic status appears to have increased and this, combined with the social and cultural compensatory trends of the 19th and early 20th centuries , have led to its present cultural position.

It is important that in any commentary on the keris, the conclusions drawn about its nature be placed within a framework related to historical time.

If anybody has any interest in pursuing further reading in this matter, I would be happy to provide a reading list. I have not done so here, because this list would be very lengthy, and I could just be wasting my time in compiling it.

David · 7th September 2006, 03:12 AM

Well Alan....not a waste of time from my perspective.

I think such a list would be considered very helpful by many.

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 03:46 AM

OK, I`ll put it together, but it won`t happen overnight. Maybe next week.

Bear in mind:- this will not be a list of books about keris, but rather about history and social comment, along with some Javanese babads. You`d need to plod through the whole lot and then digest it and form some opinions.It will include English language, Indonesian and Javanese sources.

David · 7th September 2006, 04:56 AM

Here's the quote from Stone:
"Prince Pakoet Alam at Djockjakarta showed me the old methods of fencing with the kris. He said that if a man had only one kris with him he held the scabbard in his left hand with the straight part extended along his forearm and guarded with it. If he had two krisses, he took his favorite in his right hand and the other in his left to guard with. The left-hand kris was held against his forearm with the edge and point at the top outward.In this position it was not only useful as a guard, but if his opponent tried to catch his arm a slight motion would cut his hand serverely."
This seems too detailed an account too have been a misunderstanding and i don't see what Stone would have to gain from making it up. This information was apparently shared with him in the early 20th century by a member of the royal family who i would think would know something about the cultural uses of the keris in Jawa.
One wonders at what point then, the keris ceased to be seen in a materially martial sense in Jawa. I would also extend this question to Bali. Certainly, from my own observations, the Balinese keris tends to be more of a fighting blade. It is often longer and heavier than it's Javanese brother. Bali also holds claim to the culture of the Mojopahit empire, though one could never say that the culture of, say, 19thC Bali was the same as Mojopahit Jawa, we can at least see it as an evolution of that culture. For instance, it is my understanding that blades were once polished in the Balinese style in Jawa. This tradition continues in Bali, yet it passed out of fashion in later Javanese periods. If the keris was still considered a weapon in 19thC Bali (if???) is it possible that it was also considered so in Mojopahit Jawa? Hard to say.
This passage from Wiener's Visible and Invisible Realms comes from Gusti Ketut Jelantik, Buléléng's chief minister, in response to a proposed Dutch treaty offered up in 1844:
As long as he lived there would be no Dutch sovereignty over his land. Declaring that no mere piece of paper could make anyone master over another he announced dramatically,"Let the keris decide!"
This sounds like an act of war with the keris at it's forefront. I suppose it could have been metaphorical, but it seems not to me.

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 05:41 AM

Jawa and Bali are different fish.

No doubt at all that the keris was serious weapon in Bali right through until the puputans.

No doubt at all that the keris was a serious weapon in early Jawa.

No doubt at all that even in the 1950's the keris was being used as weapon in the Peninsula. I once met a British soldier who had served in Malaya during the troubles there; he had been attacked by a keris wielding Malay and stabbed in the thigh. Left a pretty ugly scar.

As to George Cameron's comments, I believe that he was probably given a bit of demo. Bear in mind that young royals at this time were given a "palace" education. The Prince of the Pakualamanan that he mentions would have been given lessons in how to handle a keris in dances. Possibly what Geo. C. saw was a classical representation of keris usage, not the way in which one was actually used. The prince himself may well have believed that he was demonstrating the real thing. What a person believes is actual for that person.

If you study Javanese ---and Malay for that matter--- ethics and combat tactics, it is perfectly obvious that no self respecting Javanese was ever going to engage in formal frontal fencing displays. The dominant characteristics of Javanese combat are surprise and speed. I have had it said to me, by a man for whom I have very great respect in this area of Javanese edged weapon combat, that if a person was correctly attacked with a keris, he should be dead before he ever realised that he has been attacked.

My personal feeling is---and I emphasise "feeling"--- that there never was a formal system of fence attached to the keris. It was not that sort of weapon, rather it was an extension of self.

However, the argument against this is my reference to keris play exhibition in the Pararaton.

If we are going to put "the keris as a weapon" into a time frame frame, I think we`re probably looking at something like pre-Mataram. The period prior to the outcome of a battle depending on firepower, not personal skill with things that cut.In Jawa, in any case. All my comments are being made in a Javanese context. I knew an Australian Federal Policeman who was attacked by a keris (sorry, I prefer keris, even if it is a big one) wielding Moro in the Southern Phillipines in the 1970's.

Bambang Irian · 7th September 2006, 05:49 AM

In Javanesee concept basically keris is not weapons for fighting, but it is a symbol of live.
Each racikan has a symbol of philosopy.

Bambang Irian

A. G. Maisey · 7th September 2006, 06:29 AM

Yes, I agree with you Pak Bambang,in Jawa today the keris is not regarded as a weapon, but it is important to realise that this view of the keris is a comparatively recent one, that appears to have developed during possibly only the last 200 years or so, with an increased emphasis during possibly the last 50 years.

If we examine old Javanese literature, and old historical records, we find that the keris was most definitely used as a weapon in times past.

This is the reason that I say that when we consider the keris, we must consider it within a defined period of time.

6th September 2006, 06:22 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Very interesting question Bram, and one i am sure will raise some serious debate. I am not with my books right now, but i believe Stone makes reference to learning keris fighting moves from a prince of Jawa. Though some of his keris info is suspect, this reference actually names the prince and i can't see why he would make it up. Early Chinese contact brought back reports of the Javanese using the keris as a weapon back in the 15th century. People have argued these reports because the Chinese also made derogatory remarks about the Javanese as well. I am not sure that those remarks should necessarily negate the substance of the weapon use reports however. It does seem to me that the keris was at least used as a weapon in Jawa at one time. The exact point at which that changed may be very difficult to track.

7th September 2006, 01:31 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I find this an intensely interesting subject. In the Nagakertagama (circa 1365) , canto 54, stanza 2, verse 4:- "Exterminated were the animals,thrusted, lanced, crissed,dying without a gasp." also:- "The criss, a token of manfulness has its place at the front"---this was in reference to the progress of the king. In the Pararaton ( circa 1480-1600) there is a description of an exhibition of keris play as an entertainment. When Sultan Agung attacked Batavia (1628), his principle weapons were firearms. In fact, although his levies were for the most part pikemen, all his military actions relied heavily on firearms. By the time of the Kartosuro troubles roughly 100 years later, firearms were common amongst the general populace. In 1811 Raffles was appointed Governor of Jawa, and I think he took up his post in 1812. In his book "The History of Java" he mentions that the keris in Java at that time occupied the position that the small sword had occupied in Europe 50 years previous. From the time of Kartosuro, European influence in Jawa, and European manipulation of the Javanese rulers and social system resulted in changes that were reflected in social norms and consciousness. During the Kartosuro period, and continuing through to arguably the Japanese occupation during WWII, Javanese society emphasised some elements of Javanese culture, and de-emphasised other elements, as a compensating measure for loss of power and identity under European domination. The keris was in early Jawa a weapon, with many of the attributes of culturally significant weapons found in other cultures across the world, for instance, in the Viking sword. With its weapon function reduced by replacement with more effective and efficient weapons, its symbolic and iconic status appears to have increased and this, combined with the social and cultural compensatory trends of the 19th and early 20th centuries , have led to its present cultural position. It is important that in any commentary on the keris, the conclusions drawn about its nature be placed within a framework related to historical time. If anybody has any interest in pursuing further reading in this matter, I would be happy to provide a reading list. I have not done so here, because this list would be very lengthy, and I could just be wasting my time in compiling it.

7th September 2006, 03:12 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Well Alan....not a waste of time from my perspective. I think such a list would be considered very helpful by many.

7th September 2006, 03:46 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	OK, I`ll put it together, but it won`t happen overnight. Maybe next week. Bear in mind:- this will not be a list of books about keris, but rather about history and social comment, along with some Javanese babads. You`d need to plod through the whole lot and then digest it and form some opinions.It will include English language, Indonesian and Javanese sources.

7th September 2006, 04:56 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Here's the quote from Stone: "Prince Pakoet Alam at Djockjakarta showed me the old methods of fencing with the kris. He said that if a man had only one kris with him he held the scabbard in his left hand with the straight part extended along his forearm and guarded with it. If he had two krisses, he took his favorite in his right hand and the other in his left to guard with. The left-hand kris was held against his forearm with the edge and point at the top outward.In this position it was not only useful as a guard, but if his opponent tried to catch his arm a slight motion would cut his hand serverely." This seems too detailed an account too have been a misunderstanding and i don't see what Stone would have to gain from making it up. This information was apparently shared with him in the early 20th century by a member of the royal family who i would think would know something about the cultural uses of the keris in Jawa. One wonders at what point then, the keris ceased to be seen in a materially martial sense in Jawa. I would also extend this question to Bali. Certainly, from my own observations, the Balinese keris tends to be more of a fighting blade. It is often longer and heavier than it's Javanese brother. Bali also holds claim to the culture of the Mojopahit empire, though one could never say that the culture of, say, 19thC Bali was the same as Mojopahit Jawa, we can at least see it as an evolution of that culture. For instance, it is my understanding that blades were once polished in the Balinese style in Jawa. This tradition continues in Bali, yet it passed out of fashion in later Javanese periods. If the keris was still considered a weapon in 19thC Bali (if???) is it possible that it was also considered so in Mojopahit Jawa? Hard to say. This passage from Wiener's Visible and Invisible Realms comes from Gusti Ketut Jelantik, Buléléng's chief minister, in response to a proposed Dutch treaty offered up in 1844: As long as he lived there would be no Dutch sovereignty over his land. Declaring that no mere piece of paper could make anyone master over another he announced dramatically,"Let the keris decide!" This sounds like an act of war with the keris at it's forefront. I suppose it could have been metaphorical, but it seems not to me.

7th September 2006, 05:41 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Jawa and Bali are different fish. No doubt at all that the keris was serious weapon in Bali right through until the puputans. No doubt at all that the keris was a serious weapon in early Jawa. No doubt at all that even in the 1950's the keris was being used as weapon in the Peninsula. I once met a British soldier who had served in Malaya during the troubles there; he had been attacked by a keris wielding Malay and stabbed in the thigh. Left a pretty ugly scar. As to George Cameron's comments, I believe that he was probably given a bit of demo. Bear in mind that young royals at this time were given a "palace" education. The Prince of the Pakualamanan that he mentions would have been given lessons in how to handle a keris in dances. Possibly what Geo. C. saw was a classical representation of keris usage, not the way in which one was actually used. The prince himself may well have believed that he was demonstrating the real thing. What a person believes is actual for that person. If you study Javanese ---and Malay for that matter--- ethics and combat tactics, it is perfectly obvious that no self respecting Javanese was ever going to engage in formal frontal fencing displays. The dominant characteristics of Javanese combat are surprise and speed. I have had it said to me, by a man for whom I have very great respect in this area of Javanese edged weapon combat, that if a person was correctly attacked with a keris, he should be dead before he ever realised that he has been attacked. My personal feeling is---and I emphasise "feeling"--- that there never was a formal system of fence attached to the keris. It was not that sort of weapon, rather it was an extension of self. However, the argument against this is my reference to keris play exhibition in the Pararaton. If we are going to put "the keris as a weapon" into a time frame frame, I think we`re probably looking at something like pre-Mataram. The period prior to the outcome of a battle depending on firepower, not personal skill with things that cut.In Jawa, in any case. All my comments are being made in a Javanese context. I knew an Australian Federal Policeman who was attacked by a keris (sorry, I prefer keris, even if it is a big one) wielding Moro in the Southern Phillipines in the 1970's.

7th September 2006, 05:49 AM	#8
Bambang Irian Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	In Javanesee concept basically keris is not weapons for fighting, but it is a symbol of live. Each racikan has a symbol of philosopy. Bambang Irian

7th September 2006, 06:29 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, I agree with you Pak Bambang,in Jawa today the keris is not regarded as a weapon, but it is important to realise that this view of the keris is a comparatively recent one, that appears to have developed during possibly only the last 200 years or so, with an increased emphasis during possibly the last 50 years. If we examine old Javanese literature, and old historical records, we find that the keris was most definitely used as a weapon in times past. This is the reason that I say that when we consider the keris, we must consider it within a defined period of time.