Help with Sword ID

Abravefan11 · 23rd August 2006, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Is this an ellipse mark?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

It 's likely to be a tourist type from Aranyik. Narrow/untaper spine (2/8" or less) will confirm this. A popular souviner from Ayuthaya (or Bangkok) though

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure what you're telling me to look for in reference to the spine. If you don't mind if you could give me a little more explination.

Lee · 23rd August 2006, 03:25 PM

I believe Puff is describing a relatively thin blade which does not taper in thickness from the hilt to the tip.

Abravefan11 · 23rd August 2006, 03:52 PM

The spine definitely tapers. It's much thicker at the handle and tapers to the tip.

Andrew · 23rd August 2006, 04:33 PM

Puff,

Can you tell us anything about the markings we see on the spines of these swords? Any significance to the brass/copper/silver inset slugs?

Thanks,
Andrew

Mark · 23rd August 2006, 08:37 PM

Yeah, that is the "turtle" mark, sort of poorly struck. Some other examples:

Puff, Dan has reported that Lung Som calls the lower one the "bitter melon seed," but it occured to me that he might have been referring only to the rosettes on either side of the turtle, which I have also seen by themselves. Do you know if the "bitter melon seed" the same as the little turtle, or is it the rosettes? Lung Som said that the mark on the lower blade was used by two collaborating smiths, one from Aranyik and the other from Chiang Mai. which made me think that the turtle represented the Aranyik smith, and the two rosettes, the "bitter melon seeds," represented the Chiang Mai smith.

Abravefan, about the spine, a typical dha/daab is quite thick at the base (as much as a 1/2 inch), and will taper dramatically in the first 1/3 or so of the blade down to about 2/3 or 3/4 of that, then more gradually taper to a very thin width at the tip. The best way I can describe this "double taper" is that if you hold the blade up, spine towards you, it looks sort of like the Eiffel Tower.

One modern technique of making daab is to cut out the shape from sheet steel, and refine the shape by stock removal. This results in a less dramatic, or sometimes very little, distal taper, with the blade being a fairly uniform width and tapering nearer the tip (like swords from many other parts of the world, actually). The dramatic taper of the daab blade moves the point of balance very close to the grip, 2-3 inches or less. If the point of balance of your daab is further out, closer to the middle of the blade, this also indicates less distal taper.

Tim Simmons · 23rd August 2006, 09:21 PM

This is one of the same construction from WW2, the scabbard is rather different. If you are a film buff then you can see the same version is worn by the beautiful Thai lady porters in the film "Bridge over the river Kwai"

PUFF · 24th August 2006, 08:02 AM

Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic).
The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark.

The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds.

The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild.

Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer.

The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true.

Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.

23rd August 2006, 03:52 PM	#3
Abravefan11 Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	The spine definitely tapers. It's much thicker at the handle and tapers to the tip. Attached Images

23rd August 2006, 09:21 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	This is one of the same construction from WW2, the scabbard is rather different. If you are a film buff then you can see the same version is worn by the beautiful Thai lady porters in the film "Bridge over the river Kwai" Attached Images

23rd August 2006, 03:25 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 940	I believe Puff is describing a relatively thin blade which does not taper in thickness from the hilt to the tip.

23rd August 2006, 04:33 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Puff, Can you tell us anything about the markings we see on the spines of these swords? Any significance to the brass/copper/silver inset slugs? Thanks, Andrew

23rd August 2006, 08:37 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Yeah, that is the "turtle" mark, sort of poorly struck. Some other examples: Puff, Dan has reported that Lung Som calls the lower one the "bitter melon seed," but it occured to me that he might have been referring only to the rosettes on either side of the turtle, which I have also seen by themselves. Do you know if the "bitter melon seed" the same as the little turtle, or is it the rosettes? Lung Som said that the mark on the lower blade was used by two collaborating smiths, one from Aranyik and the other from Chiang Mai. which made me think that the turtle represented the Aranyik smith, and the two rosettes, the "bitter melon seeds," represented the Chiang Mai smith. Abravefan, about the spine, a typical dha/daab is quite thick at the base (as much as a 1/2 inch), and will taper dramatically in the first 1/3 or so of the blade down to about 2/3 or 3/4 of that, then more gradually taper to a very thin width at the tip. The best way I can describe this "double taper" is that if you hold the blade up, spine towards you, it looks sort of like the Eiffel Tower. One modern technique of making daab is to cut out the shape from sheet steel, and refine the shape by stock removal. This results in a less dramatic, or sometimes very little, distal taper, with the blade being a fairly uniform width and tapering nearer the tip (like swords from many other parts of the world, actually). The dramatic taper of the daab blade moves the point of balance very close to the grip, 2-3 inches or less. If the point of balance of your daab is further out, closer to the middle of the blade, this also indicates less distal taper.

24th August 2006, 08:02 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Bitter melon/cucumber seed 's ovel/elipse shape (bottom-right of the first pic). The name 's interchangable with the turtle mark. The mark was used by both LumPang and Aranyik guilds. The round mark is called Dok Keaw (Orange Jessamine, flower). It 's not found in Aranyik 's product. Mostly related with LumPang guild. Currently, there are hypothesis for marks on the spine. The first one is helping a calculation or strategy note. Another one which 's come from more reliable source is that spine marks are blade registration. The marks can be transfer to a paper or cloth with a piece of charcoal and a copy will be kept by town/city officer. The slug, however, is related with spiritual believe. The most reliable one is that the copper material has a warding power against evil or person's spiritual protection. Some smiths point out the metal keep rust away. But the hypothesis 's less solid sice it 's scientificly not true. Both marks and slugs may serve their purpose in the old time. But in this modern time, although the marks and slugs are traditional preserved, but its real purpose has been forgotten and they are purely used as a decoration.