Unusual Keris Dress from where?

David · 23rd August 2006, 03:08 PM

BTW, if you hold a ruler up to the width of the Frey example in his book and then check the length you will notice that his quoted 5.2 in. measurement must be a misprint. He lists the lenght at 21.5, but the width is clearly far longer than half the length. It would appear that the ratio of width to height are fairly similar in both yours and his example.

David · 23rd August 2006, 03:40 PM

Well, i suppose i would take a guess my first inclination is to say perhaps East Jawa. Could also be Madura and i wouldn't count out the Cirebon area either.{Hope that was non-commital enough

)

Henk · 23rd August 2006, 08:59 PM

A very remarkable dress indeed. Looking at it I compare it with the early "tourist" keris the dutch soldiers brought home in the fifties of the previous century. Good blades were redressed in fancy carved dresses to bring home to Holland. I would say just like David East Java, but more possible is Madura.

Rick · 23rd August 2006, 11:43 PM

What do I know except what I've learned from books and friends .

The gestalt of the piece makes me lean more toward E. Jawa / Cirebon as the origin .

Naga Sasra ; I did not see this piece at your home (or maybe I forgot I did; so many to see) ; do you have any measurements of it ? The keris looks smallish from the pictures .

Rick

Naga Sasra · 24th August 2006, 12:07 AM

Thank you for the welcome and for the observations posted this far.

When I initially discarted it as a tourist piece, my thinking was that I had never seen anything like it before, and nor was anything published on the style of the dress, that I had access to at the time.
Another factor involved was the fact that the market was flooded with very well made carved dresses from Bali in the 50's and 60's. Some of these pieces were extraordinary dresses, some even with decent blades in them.

David, your size observation is right on the mark, and I fully concur that the size in Frey's book is a misprint.
I will also think in the direction of Cirebon, based on the carving of the handle and at the same time not discard East Jawa.

Henk, as for Madura origin anything is possible from there, as they have proven themselves as masters of most known styles, not only blades but dress as well. The keris brought back to Holland by soldiers in the late 40's early 50's were the early "tourist" pieces, the ones most people recognize are the ones with the sitting or laying down lion, or the face of garuda on the wrangka and the helmet style handle. Could the Madura people have made this one? most certainly but have they?

I would certainly like to see if anyone out there have seen anything like it before. Or can recognise the stylistic elements of this dress and the culture from where it originates.

David · 24th August 2006, 12:23 AM

Well, for me that's quite the point in discounting the "tourist" dress idea. If indeed this style of dress was being used for tourist trade would we not have seen more of them by now? Also i would think the design a bit too abstract for touristy dress which usually tends towards representational figures.
I think i am more inclined towards East Jawa or Cirebon than Madura, but as Naga Sasra points out, all are possibilities.

Naga Sasra · 24th August 2006, 01:54 AM

Rick, I was writing as you were posting and didn't see your questions until now.

The piece was in the hallway during your visit, here are the measurements:
Overall size of the piece 23.5" or 60cm, the handle is 6" or 15.3cm,
the blade is from the tip to the top of the gonjo 13" or 33cm, lenght of gandar 14" or 35.5cm, lenght of wrangka 3.5" or 8.9cm.

And yes, the blade in my opinion is not the original blade, and is fitted poorly to the top of the wrangka.

This said keep in mind that many an older Balinese blade have a gandar much longer than the lenght of the blade. I am not stating that this is Balinese, (obviously) but merely saying that some cultures purposely make the dress longer.

David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

David · 24th August 2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

Quite possiblly, but i still don't see exactly why we are assuming it is tourist dress to begin with. Is it merely because it is unusual and ornate?
If i am not mistaken, the length of the gandar is more determined by traditional standards of proportion than it is by the length of the blade. The keris when sheathed and worn must look correctly proportioned on the person. Is this not correct?

23rd August 2006, 03:08 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	BTW, if you hold a ruler up to the width of the Frey example in his book and then check the length you will notice that his quoted 5.2 in. measurement must be a misprint. He lists the lenght at 21.5, but the width is clearly far longer than half the length. It would appear that the ratio of width to height are fairly similar in both yours and his example.

23rd August 2006, 03:40 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	Well, i suppose i would take a guess my first inclination is to say perhaps East Jawa. Could also be Madura and i wouldn't count out the Cirebon area either.{Hope that was non-commital enough )

23rd August 2006, 08:59 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A very remarkable dress indeed. Looking at it I compare it with the early "tourist" keris the dutch soldiers brought home in the fifties of the previous century. Good blades were redressed in fancy carved dresses to bring home to Holland. I would say just like David East Java, but more possible is Madura.

23rd August 2006, 11:43 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	What do I know except what I've learned from books and friends . The gestalt of the piece makes me lean more toward E. Jawa / Cirebon as the origin . Naga Sasra ; I did not see this piece at your home (or maybe I forgot I did; so many to see) ; do you have any measurements of it ? The keris looks smallish from the pictures . Rick

24th August 2006, 12:07 AM	#5
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Thank you for the welcome and for the observations posted this far. When I initially discarted it as a tourist piece, my thinking was that I had never seen anything like it before, and nor was anything published on the style of the dress, that I had access to at the time. Another factor involved was the fact that the market was flooded with very well made carved dresses from Bali in the 50's and 60's. Some of these pieces were extraordinary dresses, some even with decent blades in them. David, your size observation is right on the mark, and I fully concur that the size in Frey's book is a misprint. I will also think in the direction of Cirebon, based on the carving of the handle and at the same time not discard East Jawa. Henk, as for Madura origin anything is possible from there, as they have proven themselves as masters of most known styles, not only blades but dress as well. The keris brought back to Holland by soldiers in the late 40's early 50's were the early "tourist" pieces, the ones most people recognize are the ones with the sitting or laying down lion, or the face of garuda on the wrangka and the helmet style handle. Could the Madura people have made this one? most certainly but have they? I would certainly like to see if anyone out there have seen anything like it before. Or can recognise the stylistic elements of this dress and the culture from where it originates.

24th August 2006, 12:23 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	Well, for me that's quite the point in discounting the "tourist" dress idea. If indeed this style of dress was being used for tourist trade would we not have seen more of them by now? Also i would think the design a bit too abstract for touristy dress which usually tends towards representational figures. I think i am more inclined towards East Jawa or Cirebon than Madura, but as Naga Sasra points out, all are possibilities.

24th August 2006, 01:54 AM	#7
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Rick, I was writing as you were posting and didn't see your questions until now. The piece was in the hallway during your visit, here are the measurements: Overall size of the piece 23.5" or 60cm, the handle is 6" or 15.3cm, the blade is from the tip to the top of the gonjo 13" or 33cm, lenght of gandar 14" or 35.5cm, lenght of wrangka 3.5" or 8.9cm. And yes, the blade in my opinion is not the original blade, and is fitted poorly to the top of the wrangka. This said keep in mind that many an older Balinese blade have a gandar much longer than the lenght of the blade. I am not stating that this is Balinese, (obviously) but merely saying that some cultures purposely make the dress longer. David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?