Barung(s) for you

engar · 4th February 2005, 10:52 AM

Keep seeking Engar, I've been persistent for decades searching for real teachers and have been fortunate.
If it´s hard to find good teachers in the Philippines try to imagine outside Philippines (and USA). Spanish have the bigger philippino community in Europe and I haven´t notice about any philippino FMA teacher (apart from any fraud of the past).
The Spanish Army museum have a very good Philippine weaponry collection, I want to go after I´ll finish my exams and my vacation

if you are interested I´ll send you the pics.
Then if you come back some day I´ll show you Madrid

MABAGANI · 4th February 2005, 02:43 PM

Yes, if you go to major cities in Europe, you'll find Filipinos hanging out in the main squares especially on the weekends.
Do share pics and if you don't mind take shots of Moro cannons and battle flags too, with over three centuries of fighting I'd expect their museums would have much to show, even early drawings of ships are found there.

Battara · 5th February 2005, 02:16 PM

Speaking of barungs, Mabagani, I see that you changed your avatar. I like the new picture. Somehow looks familiar.

Federico · 6th February 2005, 01:08 AM

Ok, I get busy, go offline for a while, and here is a nice long post on barongs. Well since a lot of ground has been covered here, Ill try and see if I can slip in the best I can. Since this is a barong thread, Ill address only barongs, Ill address kris in the other thread, with one exception.

Labantayo, one hint at the possible traditional use of the garab, may come from the book Muddy Glory by Russel Roth. If I remember rightly (I dont have the book in front of me), if we associate the garab with the pulahan aka. pulajan aka. dios-dios of Samar and Leyte, at least one account in this book attributes to them that they were known for a double sword style. Now this is vague, does not necessarily point to the garab, and not very helpful but it is something.

As for the barong in FMA, as LabanTayo has noted a simple trace of your arts lineage should clear that up. Unfortunately, particularly for those of us in the US and Europe, most FMA that we are seeing has a very limited, and I stress limited set of sources. Eg. the Stockton Guros (Angel Cabales, Leo Giron, etc...), Pekiti Tersia (eg. Leo Gaje), Modern Arnis (Remy Presas), Doce Pares (either Diony or Cacoy), etc... While there are a plethora of teachers these days, you trace back and it comes back down to a small handful. Out of that handful, almost none have any real connection to Moroland, let alone a Moro fighting art. Of all the old manongs, I dont believe (with the exception of Tatang Illustrisimo) that really any claimed to be teaching a Moro art. Yet, it is the 2nd and most often 3rd and 4th generation teachers/students that seem to be spreading this myth. So where does it start, and how do you make sense out of it. If your teacher was from the US, his teacher from Visayas, and his teacher's teacher from Visayas, where does the Moro enter in the picture to teach the teacher some Moro technique let alone base the art off of a Moro weapon. Further complicating matters, is how non-blade oriented many FMA groups have become. Definitely a good way to generate power with a stick, can be very different depending on the type of blade weapon one is using. I know many in my own Eskrima group, who cannot translate their FMA into a blade because of their lack of any real blade experience. The stick in Arnis/Eskrima was intended as a training tool only for beginning students, and for many it was a good training tool because one grew up with a bolo, and did not have to re-learn how to handle it. I know from my father's own story about how his grandfather tried to teach him "arnis" a stick never entered the equation, and training was all bolo all the time. Anyways, that being said, I know in my own training, while certain principles can be taken as a universal applications of motion, none of the moves have really struck me as built around Moro weaponry. I have always felt the moves much more comfortable and natural to execute using bolo, rather than kris or barong.

Spunjer, as for Arnis/Eskrima only existing in Visayas, that can easily be traced back to the limited number of teachers who have openly taught here in the US. Visayan's were well represented amongst the early Filipino immigrants in the US, while other groups were not. There are definitely non-Visayan Eskrima/Arnis styles that werent simply taught to them by some Visayan. I can think of at least one group that pops up immidiately to my mind, and that would be Garimot Arnis. There are definitely many many different styles still in PI, that have not been taught outside of their families, let alone publically, and unfortunately even more that have been lost due to modernization. Visayas, particularly Cebu, is very well known, particularly due to the efforts of the Canete brothers, in their promotion of FMA as a more public affair. But I can assure you, that for many family styles, FMA is not something to be shared with the public, but something to be cherished and kept within the family alone. But beyond this, what constitutes FMA in itself varies greatly. I know my great-grandfather supposedly learned his style piece by piece, from his voyages as a sailor. A core set of techniques, but also adding Chinese/Indonesian/Malaysian techniques as his voyages brought him into contact with other styles from port to port. There does definitely seem to be a core connection between the FMA weapon arts and the ocean/sailors.

Anyways, as for the origin of the Barong. I still feel the answer, like the origin of the kris, lies in finding provenanced pieces. Without a provenanced pieces, we are dealing with theory. Eg. when a myth speaks of a Barong, is it speaking of the barung sword as we know it in Sulu, the barong demon as is pernicious amongst many Malay states/cultures, or something different. Do modern Maguindanao claim the sword, where do their origin myths attribute it to? Unfortunately, I do not know which 17th account you are referring to, and to what context the barong is mentioned. But one thing that is equally important, aside from identifying what exactly they are describing, would be in what context are they describing it? Anyways, it is not something I have given much thought to, as I have always felt it deeply rooted in Sulu culture, in much the same way I feel the Kampilan has been rooted to Mindanao. Though Zamboanga, the Iranun, and Balangingi Samal definitely throw wrenches into theorization. Most particularly Zamboanga, a melting pot region in which one finds Mindanao and Sulu groups and items mixing freely. Hmmmm....I had a better response before oh well...

zamboanga · 6th February 2005, 04:20 AM

from the link provided by spunjer (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html):

"Or maybe they (moros) really don't have any organized sword fighting system after all and relied purely on suicidal frenzy and the sharpness of their Kris at the height of mayhem"

my question is, would that have been possible? how can a group of people, relying supposedly on an unorganized fighting system, succesfully repulse the advances of Spain's army over a very long period of time?

i believe there is more than a system involved. and for that i suggest anyone to study the culture beyond the weapons.

even today one can see the "warrior" mentality nurtured among joloanos. and i don't mean that in a negative or a positive way. they are prepared for battle even when there is none. it is there is what i am saying.

examples i can site, ask any true blooded jolo-born lady and i bet she can show you how to disassemble a 1911 and put it back together in a snap. i have seen an 11 year old girl load a full magazine of heavy m14 bullets using her elbows. while the weapons have been replaced, the culture is still there.

my point is if you apply this to those times of old - surely a "systematic" way of blade fighting could have evolve from those hand-me down instructions. kali or not, there is a system.

going back to the link. interestingly, while the author claimed to have travelled the "entire breadth of Mindanao" he only mentions places like Ipil, Dumingag, Margosatubig and Ozamiz. These are places where the visayans dominate in populace. surely you won't find your kali man or whatever moro martials practitioner there.

he should have visited lamitan or jolo.

just my sharing. peace!

Rick · 6th February 2005, 05:32 AM

As a complete novice regarding FMA and or any relationship it may or may not have to Moro martial arts I've got to ask you guys this question ; what MA system was I watching during the Crossing Sulu Seas video when they were working with Barung , Kris and Budjak ?

MABAGANI · 6th February 2005, 09:43 AM

If you ever notice I rarely write my sources online, unfair? but always good to do your own research and cross reference, otherwise we end up not thinking for ourselves. On a hunch and through study again IMHO, the barung deals with the rise and fall of the Maguindanaos and the rise of Tausug as power shifts and transitions. I'll reserve my thoughts about footage from the Sulu Seas video. "Suicidal frenzy" doesn't cut it, you have to be taught how to use the weaponry or you'll end up hurting yourself. I'd comment that you can't separate the culture from the weapon, sure you can use basic principles but then its still incomplete, at least spiritually and physically especially when dealing with Moro swords. btw Battara, the avatar is a signal for the sword to come home some day...

Spunjer · 7th February 2005, 02:13 PM

so was arnis/escrima developed by the visayans as a form of self defense against the moros then?

mmontoro · 10th February 2005, 05:00 PM

Here's the link to the page advertising the tape:

http://www.kriscutlery.com/sandata/Video/index.html

According to that, the style is a Moro Silat-Kuntaw.

-Beautiful Javanese kris made by a master craftsman - Djeno
-Ilmu power of the Sinar Putih - silat group of Java
-Sali, a Tausug,shows moves of Moro style silat-kuntaw using a kris
-Ado, a Tausug, using a barong
-Watch a swordsmith forge a Moro Kris
And many more!

migueldiaz · 27th March 2009, 11:28 AM

Hello Kai,

Following your request in this thread for me to post the pics of my Palawan barongs in a new thread, I thought that it would be better if I just revive this one.

So from the shadows, this thread has come back once again ... at this point, play in your mind your favorite suspenseful background music ... ok, sorry for goofing around

Levity aside, the pics of my two Palawan barongs can also be found here and here.

Ian earlier posted pics of a Palawan bolo, in which the scabbard carvings are very similar to my barong scabbard (under the first "here" in the above links) ...

And yes, I agree with you that the elongated barong blade could have also come from non-Moro (upland Palawan) ethnic groups. But as far as my two barongs are concerned, the forumite-seller of these told me that their original owners are Moros ...

6th February 2005, 09:43 AM	#7
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	If you ever notice I rarely write my sources online, unfair? but always good to do your own research and cross reference, otherwise we end up not thinking for ourselves. On a hunch and through study again IMHO, the barung deals with the rise and fall of the Maguindanaos and the rise of Tausug as power shifts and transitions. I'll reserve my thoughts about footage from the Sulu Seas video. "Suicidal frenzy" doesn't cut it, you have to be taught how to use the weaponry or you'll end up hurting yourself. I'd comment that you can't separate the culture from the weapon, sure you can use basic principles but then its still incomplete, at least spiritually and physically especially when dealing with Moro swords. btw Battara, the avatar is a signal for the sword to come home some day... Last edited by MABAGANI; 6th February 2005 at 03:23 PM.

4th February 2005, 10:52 AM	#1
engar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 14	Keep seeking Engar, I've been persistent for decades searching for real teachers and have been fortunate. If it´s hard to find good teachers in the Philippines try to imagine outside Philippines (and USA). Spanish have the bigger philippino community in Europe and I haven´t notice about any philippino FMA teacher (apart from any fraud of the past). The Spanish Army museum have a very good Philippine weaponry collection, I want to go after I´ll finish my exams and my vacation if you are interested I´ll send you the pics. Then if you come back some day I´ll show you Madrid

4th February 2005, 02:43 PM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Yes, if you go to major cities in Europe, you'll find Filipinos hanging out in the main squares especially on the weekends. Do share pics and if you don't mind take shots of Moro cannons and battle flags too, with over three centuries of fighting I'd expect their museums would have much to show, even early drawings of ships are found there.

5th February 2005, 02:16 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,352	Speaking of barungs, Mabagani, I see that you changed your avatar. I like the new picture. Somehow looks familiar.

6th February 2005, 01:08 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ok, I get busy, go offline for a while, and here is a nice long post on barongs. Well since a lot of ground has been covered here, Ill try and see if I can slip in the best I can. Since this is a barong thread, Ill address only barongs, Ill address kris in the other thread, with one exception. Labantayo, one hint at the possible traditional use of the garab, may come from the book Muddy Glory by Russel Roth. If I remember rightly (I dont have the book in front of me), if we associate the garab with the pulahan aka. pulajan aka. dios-dios of Samar and Leyte, at least one account in this book attributes to them that they were known for a double sword style. Now this is vague, does not necessarily point to the garab, and not very helpful but it is something. As for the barong in FMA, as LabanTayo has noted a simple trace of your arts lineage should clear that up. Unfortunately, particularly for those of us in the US and Europe, most FMA that we are seeing has a very limited, and I stress limited set of sources. Eg. the Stockton Guros (Angel Cabales, Leo Giron, etc...), Pekiti Tersia (eg. Leo Gaje), Modern Arnis (Remy Presas), Doce Pares (either Diony or Cacoy), etc... While there are a plethora of teachers these days, you trace back and it comes back down to a small handful. Out of that handful, almost none have any real connection to Moroland, let alone a Moro fighting art. Of all the old manongs, I dont believe (with the exception of Tatang Illustrisimo) that really any claimed to be teaching a Moro art. Yet, it is the 2nd and most often 3rd and 4th generation teachers/students that seem to be spreading this myth. So where does it start, and how do you make sense out of it. If your teacher was from the US, his teacher from Visayas, and his teacher's teacher from Visayas, where does the Moro enter in the picture to teach the teacher some Moro technique let alone base the art off of a Moro weapon. Further complicating matters, is how non-blade oriented many FMA groups have become. Definitely a good way to generate power with a stick, can be very different depending on the type of blade weapon one is using. I know many in my own Eskrima group, who cannot translate their FMA into a blade because of their lack of any real blade experience. The stick in Arnis/Eskrima was intended as a training tool only for beginning students, and for many it was a good training tool because one grew up with a bolo, and did not have to re-learn how to handle it. I know from my father's own story about how his grandfather tried to teach him "arnis" a stick never entered the equation, and training was all bolo all the time. Anyways, that being said, I know in my own training, while certain principles can be taken as a universal applications of motion, none of the moves have really struck me as built around Moro weaponry. I have always felt the moves much more comfortable and natural to execute using bolo, rather than kris or barong. Spunjer, as for Arnis/Eskrima only existing in Visayas, that can easily be traced back to the limited number of teachers who have openly taught here in the US. Visayan's were well represented amongst the early Filipino immigrants in the US, while other groups were not. There are definitely non-Visayan Eskrima/Arnis styles that werent simply taught to them by some Visayan. I can think of at least one group that pops up immidiately to my mind, and that would be Garimot Arnis. There are definitely many many different styles still in PI, that have not been taught outside of their families, let alone publically, and unfortunately even more that have been lost due to modernization. Visayas, particularly Cebu, is very well known, particularly due to the efforts of the Canete brothers, in their promotion of FMA as a more public affair. But I can assure you, that for many family styles, FMA is not something to be shared with the public, but something to be cherished and kept within the family alone. But beyond this, what constitutes FMA in itself varies greatly. I know my great-grandfather supposedly learned his style piece by piece, from his voyages as a sailor. A core set of techniques, but also adding Chinese/Indonesian/Malaysian techniques as his voyages brought him into contact with other styles from port to port. There does definitely seem to be a core connection between the FMA weapon arts and the ocean/sailors. Anyways, as for the origin of the Barong. I still feel the answer, like the origin of the kris, lies in finding provenanced pieces. Without a provenanced pieces, we are dealing with theory. Eg. when a myth speaks of a Barong, is it speaking of the barung sword as we know it in Sulu, the barong demon as is pernicious amongst many Malay states/cultures, or something different. Do modern Maguindanao claim the sword, where do their origin myths attribute it to? Unfortunately, I do not know which 17th account you are referring to, and to what context the barong is mentioned. But one thing that is equally important, aside from identifying what exactly they are describing, would be in what context are they describing it? Anyways, it is not something I have given much thought to, as I have always felt it deeply rooted in Sulu culture, in much the same way I feel the Kampilan has been rooted to Mindanao. Though Zamboanga, the Iranun, and Balangingi Samal definitely throw wrenches into theorization. Most particularly Zamboanga, a melting pot region in which one finds Mindanao and Sulu groups and items mixing freely. Hmmmm....I had a better response before oh well...

6th February 2005, 04:20 AM	#5
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	from the link provided by spunjer (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html): "Or maybe they (moros) really don't have any organized sword fighting system after all and relied purely on suicidal frenzy and the sharpness of their Kris at the height of mayhem" my question is, would that have been possible? how can a group of people, relying supposedly on an unorganized fighting system, succesfully repulse the advances of Spain's army over a very long period of time? i believe there is more than a system involved. and for that i suggest anyone to study the culture beyond the weapons. even today one can see the "warrior" mentality nurtured among joloanos. and i don't mean that in a negative or a positive way. they are prepared for battle even when there is none. it is there is what i am saying. examples i can site, ask any true blooded jolo-born lady and i bet she can show you how to disassemble a 1911 and put it back together in a snap. i have seen an 11 year old girl load a full magazine of heavy m14 bullets using her elbows. while the weapons have been replaced, the culture is still there. my point is if you apply this to those times of old - surely a "systematic" way of blade fighting could have evolve from those hand-me down instructions. kali or not, there is a system. going back to the link. interestingly, while the author claimed to have travelled the "entire breadth of Mindanao" he only mentions places like Ipil, Dumingag, Margosatubig and Ozamiz. These are places where the visayans dominate in populace. surely you won't find your kali man or whatever moro martials practitioner there. he should have visited lamitan or jolo. just my sharing. peace!

6th February 2005, 05:32 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	As a complete novice regarding FMA and or any relationship it may or may not have to Moro martial arts I've got to ask you guys this question ; what MA system was I watching during the Crossing Sulu Seas video when they were working with Barung , Kris and Budjak ?

7th February 2005, 02:13 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	so was arnis/escrima developed by the visayans as a form of self defense against the moros then?

10th February 2005, 05:00 PM	#9
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Here's the link to the page advertising the tape: http://www.kriscutlery.com/sandata/Video/index.html According to that, the style is a Moro Silat-Kuntaw. -Beautiful Javanese kris made by a master craftsman - Djeno -Ilmu power of the Sinar Putih - silat group of Java -Sali, a Tausug,shows moves of Moro style silat-kuntaw using a kris -Ado, a Tausug, using a barong -Watch a swordsmith forge a Moro Kris And many more!

27th March 2009, 11:28 AM	#10
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hello Kai, Following your request in this thread for me to post the pics of my Palawan barongs in a new thread, I thought that it would be better if I just revive this one. So from the shadows, this thread has come back once again ... at this point, play in your mind your favorite suspenseful background music ... ok, sorry for goofing around Levity aside, the pics of my two Palawan barongs can also be found here and here. Ian earlier posted pics of a Palawan bolo, in which the scabbard carvings are very similar to my barong scabbard (under the first "here" in the above links) ... And yes, I agree with you that the elongated barong blade could have also come from non-Moro (upland Palawan) ethnic groups. But as far as my two barongs are concerned, the forumite-seller of these told me that their original owners are Moros ...