good battle quality flyssa

kronckew · 18th August 2006, 08:16 AM

also looks like a batak kalasan, except for the hilting & integral bolster - the blade shape seems fairly universal. was there a scabbard with it? that could be diagnostic. (overall looks like an old undecorated flyssa to me)

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2006, 10:10 PM

This sword of course is what appears a munitions grade or fighting example of the Kabyle flyssa (Algerian Berber tribe). While there remains interesting speculation and suggestions concerning the fundamental similarities between these and the Black Sea yataghan (Kurdish-Armenian or Transcaucasian yataghan in most resources), there are no established connections between the two. While Caucasian weapons are certainly known in Algerian armouries, likely from mercenaries for Ottomans, both the 'Black Sea' and the flyssa appear to be forms that evolved around second quarter of 19th c.

The earliest known flyssa is stated c.1827, and the earliest provenanced example I have found was 1857 (captured by French Foreign Legion in combat). Independantly, the Black Sea yataghan, as I have noted on the latest incarnation of that discussion has earliest provenanced examples c.1850 in Turkish regions.

I would love to find examples of either of these that might move back the origination of these forms, but as far as I know, no evidence exists prior to the dates I have mentioned.

Also a complete puzzle is the actual use of the flyssa, which to me (and again I emphasize I have only lay knowledge of martial arts) would be difficult at best as it is terribly balanced for slashing, the grip is inadequate in size and without guard or and support for the hand. To use it as a lance or thrusting weapon, there is again no hand support. I am not aware of any narrative describing these swords in use, but perhaps any of our readers who have access to French Foreign Legion narratives of combat with these Berber tribes may be able to help.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 19th August 2006, 10:23 PM

I think the big knife type of Flyssa is held much in the same way as a great many of Indonesian knives with a small handle for Europeans, that is often held with a thumb and forefinger on the forte. The Flyssa then is a very keen blade, the thin ones very much a rib tickler

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Tim Simmons · 20th August 2006, 06:29 PM

This is only a small one but I think you could go twice the length, which would make this 75cm overall. Very similar to the one starting the thread. Held in this fashion would be quite comfortable as they are a light fast weapon. Deadly, like all those thin daggers from around the Mediterranean.

Rick · 20th August 2006, 10:12 PM

I could also see this blade working well with a kanjar (icepick) type grip.

20th August 2006, 06:29 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This is only a small one but I think you could go twice the length, which would make this 75cm overall. Very similar to the one starting the thread. Held in this fashion would be quite comfortable as they are a light fast weapon. Deadly, like all those thin daggers from around the Mediterranean. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th August 2006 at 06:42 PM.

18th August 2006, 08:16 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	also looks like a batak kalasan, except for the hilting & integral bolster - the blade shape seems fairly universal. was there a scabbard with it? that could be diagnostic. (overall looks like an old undecorated flyssa to me)

19th August 2006, 10:10 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This sword of course is what appears a munitions grade or fighting example of the Kabyle flyssa (Algerian Berber tribe). While there remains interesting speculation and suggestions concerning the fundamental similarities between these and the Black Sea yataghan (Kurdish-Armenian or Transcaucasian yataghan in most resources), there are no established connections between the two. While Caucasian weapons are certainly known in Algerian armouries, likely from mercenaries for Ottomans, both the 'Black Sea' and the flyssa appear to be forms that evolved around second quarter of 19th c. The earliest known flyssa is stated c.1827, and the earliest provenanced example I have found was 1857 (captured by French Foreign Legion in combat). Independantly, the Black Sea yataghan, as I have noted on the latest incarnation of that discussion has earliest provenanced examples c.1850 in Turkish regions. I would love to find examples of either of these that might move back the origination of these forms, but as far as I know, no evidence exists prior to the dates I have mentioned. Also a complete puzzle is the actual use of the flyssa, which to me (and again I emphasize I have only lay knowledge of martial arts) would be difficult at best as it is terribly balanced for slashing, the grip is inadequate in size and without guard or and support for the hand. To use it as a lance or thrusting weapon, there is again no hand support. I am not aware of any narrative describing these swords in use, but perhaps any of our readers who have access to French Foreign Legion narratives of combat with these Berber tribes may be able to help. Best regards, Jim

19th August 2006, 10:23 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I think the big knife type of Flyssa is held much in the same way as a great many of Indonesian knives with a small handle for Europeans, that is often held with a thumb and forefinger on the forte. The Flyssa then is a very keen blade, the thin ones very much a rib tickler .

20th August 2006, 10:12 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I could also see this blade working well with a kanjar (icepick) type grip.