Destructive Sword Test.... Machine Gun vs. Katana

Lew · 15th August 2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The next step: how long will Mona Llisa stand against a flamethrower?
There is no limit to stupidity......

Ariel

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

Lew

Valjhun · 15th August 2006, 05:09 PM

Is that goemons' sword?

Crazy, the world is going down, the ancestors of thoose swordsmiths are turning in their graves... I totaly agree with SenSei, stupidity to the limit. The fact that the sword was born for such a test only confirms and escalates the stupidity of thoose people... There are at least a 1000 tests wich can confirm the quality of a sword. Not so glamourous as that test but also not so rednecked. Why? Unless you are a dragon ninja, you'll never have to parry gunshots with a katana

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

You have every right to call me stupid or crazy...

Just think of the PR the Smith will get from this demo... it will be more than worth the price of the blade. As difficult as the test is to accept (even for me), its no different that taking a brand new "Beamer" and crashing it into a concrete wall at 60 MPH... to show what punishment the car will take and let you "walk" away. Great advertisement... I want one.

Lew · 15th August 2006, 07:17 PM

Gentleman

This type of test is partly done for hype and partly done for knowlege. I am sure that ancient bladesmiths on occassion experimented with new or different steel combinations and heat treatments to see if they could come up with a better sword. Also destroying a blade now and then gives one a chance to see how their quality control is doing. So it is not stupidity in anyway to do this type of testing granted it is on the extreme side of experimentation. Some blades with kisu or flaws are often destroyed maybe this was one of them? I recall a story of a famous Japanese sword maker who created a very beautiful katana for his lord but when the blade was tested it failed to cut well. The sword maker spent an entire year or more refining his technique and told his lord that his next sword would surpass all the cutting tests or he would commit sepuku. Well the sword maker finally kept his word and produced the most wonderful sword for his lord that would pass all of the cutting tests put to it. I am quite sure that the sword maker went through a few test swords before he finally came up with the winner his life depended on it.

Lew

Valjhun · 15th August 2006, 07:28 PM

I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

I do not think that anyone can disagree with you, it is a very odd benchmark for sword making. But it is an impressive benchmark.

I do not think that this one test alone would be enough to prove a sword's worth.

But passing all other tests, what a sword!!!!!!!

The Double D · 15th August 2006, 09:11 PM

Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

katana · 15th August 2006, 09:51 PM

I agree that the testing of blades is important....how else can you prove that the blades you produce have quality or the forging techniques you employ are the 'best'. Historically speaking...many blades were tested.....to find out, in the heat of battle, that your blade was say,...badly tempered and shatters, would be a test...too late

Using an 50 calibre machine gun.... is a little extreme ....but visually it is a spectacle......a case of old weapon technology versus new.... no problem there......unless the katana is historically significant.....then thats a different matter

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

I think it is fair to say, with the techniques used in making this type of blade, the stress of being struck by this type of round... seven times in quick succession (with heat production and stress)... yes, really good swords can delaminate like this.

Splitting a 50 cal...

ariel · 16th August 2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ariel

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

Lew

I missed the point. If it is a new sword and if it was made specifically as a "crush dummy", then... go ahead! Make my day!

BSMStar · 16th August 2006, 02:07 PM

How did they make such a crash dummy?

Jeff, you may be interested in this.

Making of Katana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc&NR

katana · 18th August 2006, 11:14 PM

Found this ....thought it may be relavent...

As Odin says in the Hovamal:

"Praise no day 'til evening;

no wife 'til on her pyre;

no sword 'til tested;

no maid 'til bedded;

no ice 'til crossed;

no ale 'til drunk."

Ah, and I'm following his advice.......but still trying to find an ale I shouldn't praise

Rivkin · 19th August 2006, 12:00 AM

I think 9mm civilian is by far incapable of penetrating steel targets. Would the results be different if instead of a sword one would use a steel prybar ? I don't know, but I would think that any properly prepared steel bar would do even better than a sword due to its geometry - I doubt if 30 cal rifle with ordinary bullets can penetrate more than 5mm of steel, 20(?)mm if one is using AP.
This reminds of the story a few years ago when a big "sensei" in an american nihonto community seriously damaged reporduction of a XVIth century helmet using a reproduction katana. It was covered as an example of immense quality of japanese style weapons and immense talents of the "sensei". Shortly after it the whole bunch of different "reenactment" people started to squash helmet using axes, warhammers, swords, maheiras, god knows what else. Some failed miserably, some completely wacked their test subjects.

I think the same effect is here - people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

BSMStar · 21st August 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

- people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

Keep in mind for the 50 cal...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG

"The M2 would, however, go on to function as an anti-armour machine gun, and decades later, be used in high-powered rifles..... During World War II it found its usage in penetrating lightly armoured vehicles, including aircraft."

I agree that a 9mm ain't that impressive. One shot at that. But seven rounds of 50....

That's just crazy. I would not want to try stopping just one round of 50 with today's body armor.... wouldn't that be suicide?

Rivkin · 22nd August 2006, 01:37 AM

aircrafts were usually made from wood, dural or other similarly non bulletproof materials. light armored vehicles (APC) usually have 5mm or so of armour. Sword is like 25mm wide - it is a completely different class, more like a tank.

15th August 2006, 05:09 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Is that goemons' sword? Crazy, the world is going down, the ancestors of thoose swordsmiths are turning in their graves... I totaly agree with SenSei, stupidity to the limit. The fact that the sword was born for such a test only confirms and escalates the stupidity of thoose people... There are at least a 1000 tests wich can confirm the quality of a sword. Not so glamourous as that test but also not so rednecked. Why? Unless you are a dragon ninja, you'll never have to parry gunshots with a katana Last edited by Valjhun; 15th August 2006 at 05:28 PM.

15th August 2006, 07:17 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gentleman This type of test is partly done for hype and partly done for knowlege. I am sure that ancient bladesmiths on occassion experimented with new or different steel combinations and heat treatments to see if they could come up with a better sword. Also destroying a blade now and then gives one a chance to see how their quality control is doing. So it is not stupidity in anyway to do this type of testing granted it is on the extreme side of experimentation. Some blades with kisu or flaws are often destroyed maybe this was one of them? I recall a story of a famous Japanese sword maker who created a very beautiful katana for his lord but when the blade was tested it failed to cut well. The sword maker spent an entire year or more refining his technique and told his lord that his next sword would surpass all the cutting tests or he would commit sepuku. Well the sword maker finally kept his word and produced the most wonderful sword for his lord that would pass all of the cutting tests put to it. I am quite sure that the sword maker went through a few test swords before he finally came up with the winner his life depended on it. Lew

15th August 2006, 07:28 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

15th August 2006, 09:11 PM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

15th August 2006, 09:51 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I agree that the testing of blades is important....how else can you prove that the blades you produce have quality or the forging techniques you employ are the 'best'. Historically speaking...many blades were tested.....to find out, in the heat of battle, that your blade was say,...badly tempered and shatters, would be a test...too late Using an 50 calibre machine gun.... is a little extreme ....but visually it is a spectacle......a case of old weapon technology versus new.... no problem there......unless the katana is historically significant.....then thats a different matter

16th August 2006, 02:07 PM	#11
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	How did they make such a crash dummy? Jeff, you may be interested in this. Making of Katana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc&NR

18th August 2006, 11:14 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Found this ....thought it may be relavent... As Odin says in the Hovamal: "Praise no day 'til evening; no wife 'til on her pyre; no sword 'til tested; no maid 'til bedded; no ice 'til crossed; no ale 'til drunk." Ah, and I'm following his advice.......but still trying to find an ale I shouldn't praise

19th August 2006, 12:00 AM	#13
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think 9mm civilian is by far incapable of penetrating steel targets. Would the results be different if instead of a sword one would use a steel prybar ? I don't know, but I would think that any properly prepared steel bar would do even better than a sword due to its geometry - I doubt if 30 cal rifle with ordinary bullets can penetrate more than 5mm of steel, 20(?)mm if one is using AP. This reminds of the story a few years ago when a big "sensei" in an american nihonto community seriously damaged reporduction of a XVIth century helmet using a reproduction katana. It was covered as an example of immense quality of japanese style weapons and immense talents of the "sensei". Shortly after it the whole bunch of different "reenactment" people started to squash helmet using axes, warhammers, swords, maheiras, god knows what else. Some failed miserably, some completely wacked their test subjects. I think the same effect is here - people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

22nd August 2006, 01:37 AM	#15
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	aircrafts were usually made from wood, dural or other similarly non bulletproof materials. light armored vehicles (APC) usually have 5mm or so of armour. Sword is like 25mm wide - it is a completely different class, more like a tank.