?1900s Indian Army saber?

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 12:11 AM

While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described.
It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production.

This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt.
It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's

This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge.

Most interesting sword!!
Best regards,
JIm

Tim Simmons · 15th August 2006, 09:24 PM

Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi Tim,
Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province?
I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically.
I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers).

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 15th August 2006, 11:45 PM

On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim.

Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy?

Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point?

Just a few thoughts that popped up.

Spiral

15th August 2006, 12:11 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described. It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production. This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt. It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge. Most interesting sword!! Best regards, JIm

15th August 2006, 09:24 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

15th August 2006, 10:03 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Tim, Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province? I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically. I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers). All the best, Jim

15th August 2006, 11:45 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim. Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy? Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point? Just a few thoughts that popped up. Spiral