Definitive Warfare

nechesh · 7th August 2006, 03:09 AM

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

Rick · 7th August 2006, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

Yes , and Kenneth French Anderson who was a missionary on Mindanao during that time (he died there) . We may be Yankees but we do have relatives in the South .

Then there was Harrison Smith who did a fair amount of exploring in Borneo .

Flavio · 7th August 2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes , and Kenneth French Anderson who was a missionary on Mindanao during that time (he died there) . We may be Yankees but we do have relatives in the South .

Then there was Harrison Smith who did a fair amount of exploring in Borneo .

COOL!!!!!

Willie W. · 7th August 2006, 08:48 AM

Ian and Rick,

thank you for responding in such a mature fashion. Now I see where you two are coming from. Your respect towards your collection transcends what some, if not most, would refer to as an eye candy. I really hope that there are more collectors like you two who really respect these venerated objects.

As for your suggestion, Ian; it sure is a pity. I just hope that, if anything, the future generation will have access to what was once the pride and life of their ancestors.

And Rick, I've known for awhile your ties to my people

, and with that I respect you more that you'll ever know.

respectfully yours,

Willie

Willie W. · 8th August 2006, 06:36 PM

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

nechesh · 9th August 2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Sorry mate, i'm afraid when you post on an open forum your words (or lack there in) effect everyone. Couldn't care less who you were actually aiming at. I assure you, i am very relaxed and my advice to you really has nothing to do with muscle, just common sense. Nor does it have anything to do with you being the "new guy". I will be very interested in you words about Moro weapons and culture when you really have something to say beyonds vague hints and inuendo.

mross · 9th August 2006, 05:16 PM

Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won?

There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble.
The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords.
Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few?
Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay.

Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851
Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so

I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

7th August 2006, 03:09 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

7th August 2006, 08:48 AM	#4
Willie W. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Ian and Rick, thank you for responding in such a mature fashion. Now I see where you two are coming from. Your respect towards your collection transcends what some, if not most, would refer to as an eye candy. I really hope that there are more collectors like you two who really respect these venerated objects. As for your suggestion, Ian; it sure is a pity. I just hope that, if anything, the future generation will have access to what was once the pride and life of their ancestors. And Rick, I've known for awhile your ties to my people , and with that I respect you more that you'll ever know. respectfully yours, Willie

8th August 2006, 06:36 PM	#5
Willie W. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Nechesh, You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

9th August 2006, 05:16 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won? There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble. The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords. Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few? Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay. Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?