Definitive Warfare

Willie W. · 5th August 2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

...They have an outstanding knowledge of Moro and Dayak weapons. If Dave wanted it this much, I assure you all that it is worth more.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Bill M · 5th August 2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

They have been collecting for many years. Museum quality pieces. I don't believe that you would consider them wealthy financially, but wealthy in terms of knowledge and absolutely in terms of friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Don't understand what you mean.

Rick · 5th August 2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Lol, you mean they have a lot of money to spend...

Btw, Bill, that's a pretty close description.

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

nechesh · 5th August 2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

hhmmm...kinda curious about that one myself.

Willie W. · 6th August 2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Willie , I gotta ask; are you here to share information ?
Are you here to wisecrack ?
Are you annoyed with the collecting community ?

What's up ?

Feel free to be candid; it's okay .

I did not know that i need a reason to be here, Rick. Thought it was an open forum to the public. I'm making comments as I see fit. Please read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 . If you don't like what I post, I believe there is an option where you can put me on your ignore list. And that goes to anyone else who feel my posts are not icky sweet. We're all adults here (I hope), and there's a certain kind of bias in this forum as we all know; so knowing that some people can get away asking the damnest question without getting banned/locked out, please do this: IGNORE MY POST!

So going back to your questions, Rick; are you assuming that I'm wisecracking ? Well, let me ask you this; is that how you percieve it? IMHO, I'm not. Am I annoyed with the collecting community? No, but I am tired of seeing the prices of these swords go up and everyone here act like it's OK. I know it's inivitable (sp), but a message to the price drivers, please don't pay that much for something you don't know squat, or just because it looks "pretty" to you. There are actually some people who collect it because it means more than an art object, that these artifacts are the bridges to someone's heritage, and with the prices going up at this rate, the future generation would never know.

Ian · 6th August 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi Willie:

You are, of course, free to express your opinions as freely as anyone else here. I think Rick was asking you the questions he did because your answers have been somewhat cryptic and it was unclear what you were getting at a few times. I don't think anyone was taking offense with you, just trying to clarify what you meant.

That said, I think you have answered Rick's question in that you do seem to have some issues with the collecting community for driving up prices on items that might otherwise be affordable to individuals within the original culture from which they came.

We have actually had similar discussions here in the past. One point that has come up repeatedly is that many of these heirloom items may never have survived at all were it not for the collecting community who have patiently maintained them for many years. We have often remarked that museums do not value edged weapons very highly unless they are of exceptional quality or historical significance. Even exceptional quality is not a high enough priority for many museums to spend large sums maintaining them in the condition they deserve. The collecting community actually does that, and more. So there are pluses and minuses to the way things have evolved.

If these items were valued as highly as you suggest within the host culture, I suspect some way would be found to repatriate them through a concerted buying back program, much as happened with Japanese swords. I'm not seeing that with Moro swords, which is a pity. Perhaps you could work on organizing such a program. Unfortunately, the market place has its own momentum, and there is not much anyone can do about that, much as we might like to.

Regards,

Ian.

ariel · 6th August 2006, 10:58 PM

I read his posts and smell a whiff of somebody else.... You know...

Bill M · 6th August 2006, 11:01 PM

Uh oh, do you mean that 'someone' who is not around anymore?

nechesh · 6th August 2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

So going back to your questions, Rick; are you assuming that I'm wisecracking ? Well, let me ask you this; is that how you percieve it? IMHO, I'm not. Am I annoyed with the collecting community? No, but I am tired of seeing the prices of these swords go up and everyone here act like it's OK. I know it's inivitable (sp), but a message to the price drivers, please don't pay that much for something you don't know squat, or just because it looks "pretty" to you. There are actually some people who collect it because it means more than an art object, that these artifacts are the bridges to someone's heritage, and with the prices going up at this rate, the future generation would never know.

Hey Willie, where on earth did you get the idea that "everyone here" is acting like these escalating prices are OK. Re-read the thread you linked and then re-read this one. Are the majority of responses really in favor of this super high prices?
I don't think Rick or anybody else is looking to shut out your words with the ignore feature (at least not yet

. Nobody is demanding that you need a reason to be here either. But you have made a number of allusions to knowledge that you have failed to follow through on. This forum is a place to share such knowledge. If you don't care to share that's OK too, but acting like you know something more and not backing it up doesn't hold much water on internet forums IMO.
You also make a rather broad assumption as to why various collectors collect these objects. I wouldn't begin to guess at why these folks Dave and Lorna collect Moro weapons. Likewise you haven't a clue as to my motivation to collect Indonesian keris. Why you collect is, of course, your business.
I truly believe that when Rick encourages you to "be candid" he means just that. But try actually saying something worthwhile and constructive with it. That's the trick.

Rick · 7th August 2006, 02:45 AM

Hi Willie ,
Thanks for spelling it out for me .
I take no offense at what you have said; I have no reason to .
As a matter of fact I agree with you on many points that you have made .
I just feel better if we speak plainly here; I'm not much of one to pick up on subtle innuendos; call me dense if you will but I prefer it when people speak plainly and openly.

Personally speaking I have all the Moro pieces I will ever collect; two budiak two kampilan, two barung and 5 krisses . I would love to see these pieces go back to the Bangsamoro after I pass ; I would really appreciate it if they went to further the study of the history of the Moro peoples; but how to effectively achieve that is my question.
Perhaps you can offer an answer.

My family is tied to Moro history; my last name is Bates .

Rick

nechesh · 7th August 2006, 03:09 AM

That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?

6th August 2006, 08:14 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Willie: You are, of course, free to express your opinions as freely as anyone else here. I think Rick was asking you the questions he did because your answers have been somewhat cryptic and it was unclear what you were getting at a few times. I don't think anyone was taking offense with you, just trying to clarify what you meant. That said, I think you have answered Rick's question in that you do seem to have some issues with the collecting community for driving up prices on items that might otherwise be affordable to individuals within the original culture from which they came. We have actually had similar discussions here in the past. One point that has come up repeatedly is that many of these heirloom items may never have survived at all were it not for the collecting community who have patiently maintained them for many years. We have often remarked that museums do not value edged weapons very highly unless they are of exceptional quality or historical significance. Even exceptional quality is not a high enough priority for many museums to spend large sums maintaining them in the condition they deserve. The collecting community actually does that, and more. So there are pluses and minuses to the way things have evolved. If these items were valued as highly as you suggest within the host culture, I suspect some way would be found to repatriate them through a concerted buying back program, much as happened with Japanese swords. I'm not seeing that with Moro swords, which is a pity. Perhaps you could work on organizing such a program. Unfortunately, the market place has its own momentum, and there is not much anyone can do about that, much as we might like to. Regards, Ian.

6th August 2006, 10:58 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I read his posts and smell a whiff of somebody else.... You know...

6th August 2006, 11:01 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Uh oh, do you mean that 'someone' who is not around anymore?

7th August 2006, 02:45 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Willie , Thanks for spelling it out for me . I take no offense at what you have said; I have no reason to . As a matter of fact I agree with you on many points that you have made . I just feel better if we speak plainly here; I'm not much of one to pick up on subtle innuendos; call me dense if you will but I prefer it when people speak plainly and openly. Personally speaking I have all the Moro pieces I will ever collect; two budiak two kampilan, two barung and 5 krisses . I would love to see these pieces go back to the Bangsamoro after I pass ; I would really appreciate it if they went to further the study of the history of the Moro peoples; but how to effectively achieve that is my question. Perhaps you can offer an answer. My family is tied to Moro history; my last name is Bates . Rick

7th August 2006, 03:09 AM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	That's interesting Rick. Are you saying that you are related to Brig. General John C. Bates of the Bates Treaty?