Filippine kris moro?

BSMStar · 4th August 2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Rick · 4th August 2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Or perhaps any older kris with a twisted core .
But not the one that is the subject of this particular thread .
I'm sure that the piece is very high end; but nowhere is it described as having a twisted core IIRC .

Battara · 4th August 2006, 09:52 PM

I finally woke up and looked into some research, specifically Peter Gowing's book Muslim Filipino-Heritage and Horizon (Queszon City: New Day Pub., 1979). He was the director Dansalan College, Marawi City and he writes:

"The office of panglima (personal representative of the Sultan)...carried certain perogatives and powers in Sulu..."(p.45)

Of datus he writes:

"There were (and still are) at leaset three kinds of datus in Moro society: datue-in-fact, daut-in-name, and royal datue. Datus-in-fact actually presided over a group of followers and /or controlled a give territory. Datus-in-name were as a courtesy called datus because they were born into aristocratic familiesd, while in reality they commanded no following and had no power."(p.47)

He then goes on to mention that the royal datus were related closely as blood relatives to the sultan.

In some ways it would seem that Willie may have a point, that it went: Sultan, Panglima, then Datu.

Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power.

This might explain why some "datu class" pieces have very expensive gold, ivory, silver mounts and others less so, such a wide range.

BSMStar · 5th August 2006, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power.

So Battara, why would this rule be any different than any other Philippine sword rule... it's a sundang.

All kidding aside, great research!

Willie W. · 5th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Perhaps I am missing something here but I thought the discussion was on inlays not twisted cores?

Oh yeah, about the inlays...

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Battara's research and Willie's rankings are correct.

We actually did quite a bit of research on this while in Sulu as we had to get it right before we engaged the traditional heirarchy. They are VERY conscious of rank still (at least in Sulu) to the point where seating arrangements and invitations would take up an inordinate amount of time and have to be vetted through all groups involved just to sit down and have a meeting.

There are still the three varieties of Datus on Sulu. A Panglima refers to a representative of the Sultan. The individual could have been a Datu also but the designation of Panglima carried with it the weight of the Sultan's authority (and generally a sizeable force of soldiers). Panglima's were generally used to enforce trade agreements from recalcitrant Datus or sent to handle matters between warring Datu's. As with most kingdoms the farther you get away from the seat of power the less control you can exert. Panglima's were the Sultan's enforcers and would insure that any stray Datu's were brought into line.

By the way. I read a couple of Peter Gowing's books. Mostly he borrowed from what was already published -no new insights of his own. In addition he spent all of his time in the Lake Lanao (Marawi) region of Central Mindanao which has signifigantly different cultural aspects from Sulu. Thomas Keiffer wrote what I thought was the most insightful book on the workings of the Sulu culture in his Book "The Tausug". He spent 2 years living with the Tausug in Eastern Sulu.

Dan

Spunjer · 20th December 2011, 09:53 PM

pictured is Panglima Unga, barung master extraordinaire, patriarch of the Unga clan from Talipao

to reinterate on the ranking system in Sulu: A datu comes from the royal line. His father is either the Sultan or a datu. A panglima is the head of a kauman or district, that is large enough. The title is conferred upon the person by the sultan. The Panglima represents the people in matters to be brought to the sultan, like a mayor. some Panglima are chosen as members of the Ruma Bichara, which is like a Parliiament. The Ruma Bichara (supreme council or "house of talk") formulates laws and decides with the Sultan questions on matters of state, where the Panglima members are like the House of Commons and the Datu members are like the House of Lords. The Ruma Bichara also decides who is and proclaims the Sultan. No Sultan can be proclaimed by any one person unilaterally. It has to be the unanimous choice of the Ruma Bichara. The term "panglima" started when there were only five districts in the sultanate: Maimbung, Patikul, Parang, Luuk, and Latih. Thus, pangLIMA. They were the "hand, eyes and ears" of the Sultan.

Battara · 20th December 2011, 11:04 PM

I think my dad said the same thing about this picture when he saw it in Cato's book, that this was panglima Unga.

As far as panglima is concerned, I wonder if this also applies to Aceh in Indonesia, since the term I believe is also used there and the panglima is also chosen by the sultan there (pre-Aceh War).

5th August 2006, 09:57 AM	#6
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Panglima Battara's research and Willie's rankings are correct. We actually did quite a bit of research on this while in Sulu as we had to get it right before we engaged the traditional heirarchy. They are VERY conscious of rank still (at least in Sulu) to the point where seating arrangements and invitations would take up an inordinate amount of time and have to be vetted through all groups involved just to sit down and have a meeting. There are still the three varieties of Datus on Sulu. A Panglima refers to a representative of the Sultan. The individual could have been a Datu also but the designation of Panglima carried with it the weight of the Sultan's authority (and generally a sizeable force of soldiers). Panglima's were generally used to enforce trade agreements from recalcitrant Datus or sent to handle matters between warring Datu's. As with most kingdoms the farther you get away from the seat of power the less control you can exert. Panglima's were the Sultan's enforcers and would insure that any stray Datu's were brought into line. By the way. I read a couple of Peter Gowing's books. Mostly he borrowed from what was already published -no new insights of his own. In addition he spent all of his time in the Lake Lanao (Marawi) region of Central Mindanao which has signifigantly different cultural aspects from Sulu. Thomas Keiffer wrote what I thought was the most insightful book on the workings of the Sulu culture in his Book "The Tausug". He spent 2 years living with the Tausug in Eastern Sulu. Dan Last edited by wilked aka Khun Deng; 5th August 2006 at 10:04 AM. Reason: additional info

20th December 2011, 09:53 PM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	pictured is Panglima Unga, barung master extraordinaire, patriarch of the Unga clan from Talipao to reinterate on the ranking system in Sulu: A datu comes from the royal line. His father is either the Sultan or a datu. A panglima is the head of a kauman or district, that is large enough. The title is conferred upon the person by the sultan. The Panglima represents the people in matters to be brought to the sultan, like a mayor. some Panglima are chosen as members of the Ruma Bichara, which is like a Parliiament. The Ruma Bichara (supreme council or "house of talk") formulates laws and decides with the Sultan questions on matters of state, where the Panglima members are like the House of Commons and the Datu members are like the House of Lords. The Ruma Bichara also decides who is and proclaims the Sultan. No Sultan can be proclaimed by any one person unilaterally. It has to be the unanimous choice of the Ruma Bichara. The term "panglima" started when there were only five districts in the sultanate: Maimbung, Patikul, Parang, Luuk, and Latih. Thus, pangLIMA. They were the "hand, eyes and ears" of the Sultan. Attached Images

4th August 2006, 09:52 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I finally woke up and looked into some research, specifically Peter Gowing's book Muslim Filipino-Heritage and Horizon (Queszon City: New Day Pub., 1979). He was the director Dansalan College, Marawi City and he writes: "The office of panglima (personal representative of the Sultan)...carried certain perogatives and powers in Sulu..."(p.45) Of datus he writes: "There were (and still are) at leaset three kinds of datus in Moro society: datue-in-fact, daut-in-name, and royal datue. Datus-in-fact actually presided over a group of followers and /or controlled a give territory. Datus-in-name were as a courtesy called datus because they were born into aristocratic familiesd, while in reality they commanded no following and had no power."(p.47) He then goes on to mention that the royal datus were related closely as blood relatives to the sultan. In some ways it would seem that Willie may have a point, that it went: Sultan, Panglima, then Datu. Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power. This might explain why some "datu class" pieces have very expensive gold, ivory, silver mounts and others less so, such a wide range.

20th December 2011, 11:04 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I think my dad said the same thing about this picture when he saw it in Cato's book, that this was panglima Unga. As far as panglima is concerned, I wonder if this also applies to Aceh in Indonesia, since the term I believe is also used there and the panglima is also chosen by the sultan there (pre-Aceh War).