Filippine kris moro?

BSMStar · 2nd August 2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok, Willie, I will show my ignorance here. What is a panglima exactly and what is the difference? (yes - lots of datus in the region).

Please correct me if I am wrong... I believe the panglimas were the Datu's lieutenants or regional leaders/warriors under the Datu's command.

Ian · 3rd August 2006, 12:03 PM

I think Panglima is a Malay word and implies much more than a Datu's lieutenant -- more in the nature of a general with command over a substantial number of warriors. Sometimes the terms Datu and Panglima are applied to the same person. That would suggest service to a sultan or other higher dignitary than a datu. I look forward to reading Willie's explanation of the term.

Ian.

Edit: A Malay term Panglima Tertinggi refers to "Commander in Chief"

BSMStar · 3rd August 2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Sometimes the terms Datu and Panglima are applied to the same person. That would suggest service to a sultan or other higher dignitary than a datu.

I have been privately contacted and "corrected" too.

In order for me to sort this out, in whose employment was the Panglima? By the Datu or the Sultan?

That would answer a lot for me.

VVV · 3rd August 2006, 01:47 PM

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?
I noticed that there were five districts (five=lima), is this a coincidence?

In Swish of the Kris Panglima is translated as judge.

Michael

From http://www.answers.com/topic/tausug-people

"...In 1390, Raja Baguinda landed at Buansa and extended the missionary work of Makdum. The Muslim Arabian scholar Abu Bakr arrived in 1450, married Baguinda's daughter, and after Baguinda's death, became sultan, thereby introducing the sultanate as a political system. Political districts were created in Parang, Pansul, Lati, Gitung, and Luuk, each headed by a panglima or district leader."

Battara · 4th August 2006, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?
I noticed that there were five districts (five=lima), is this a coincidence?

In Swish of the Kris Panglima is translated as judge.

Michael

From http://www.answers.com/topic/tausug-people

"...In 1390, Raja Baguinda landed at Buansa and extended the missionary work of Makdum. The Muslim Arabian scholar Abu Bakr arrived in 1450, married Baguinda's daughter, and after Baguinda's death, became sultan, thereby introducing the sultanate as a political system. Political districts were created in Parang, Pansul, Lati, Gitung, and Luuk, each headed by a panglima or district leader."

Thanks VVV, I was asleep at the keyboard again...

BSMStar · 4th August 2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Rick · 4th August 2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Or perhaps any older kris with a twisted core .
But not the one that is the subject of this particular thread .
I'm sure that the piece is very high end; but nowhere is it described as having a twisted core IIRC .

Battara · 4th August 2006, 09:52 PM

I finally woke up and looked into some research, specifically Peter Gowing's book Muslim Filipino-Heritage and Horizon (Queszon City: New Day Pub., 1979). He was the director Dansalan College, Marawi City and he writes:

"The office of panglima (personal representative of the Sultan)...carried certain perogatives and powers in Sulu..."(p.45)

Of datus he writes:

"There were (and still are) at leaset three kinds of datus in Moro society: datue-in-fact, daut-in-name, and royal datue. Datus-in-fact actually presided over a group of followers and /or controlled a give territory. Datus-in-name were as a courtesy called datus because they were born into aristocratic familiesd, while in reality they commanded no following and had no power."(p.47)

He then goes on to mention that the royal datus were related closely as blood relatives to the sultan.

In some ways it would seem that Willie may have a point, that it went: Sultan, Panglima, then Datu.

Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power.

This might explain why some "datu class" pieces have very expensive gold, ivory, silver mounts and others less so, such a wide range.

3rd August 2006, 12:03 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	I think Panglima is a Malay word and implies much more than a Datu's lieutenant -- more in the nature of a general with command over a substantial number of warriors. Sometimes the terms Datu and Panglima are applied to the same person. That would suggest service to a sultan or other higher dignitary than a datu. I look forward to reading Willie's explanation of the term. Ian. Edit: A Malay term Panglima Tertinggi refers to "Commander in Chief" Last edited by Ian; 3rd August 2006 at 12:24 PM.

3rd August 2006, 01:47 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu? I noticed that there were five districts (five=lima), is this a coincidence? In Swish of the Kris Panglima is translated as judge. Michael From http://www.answers.com/topic/tausug-people "...In 1390, Raja Baguinda landed at Buansa and extended the missionary work of Makdum. The Muslim Arabian scholar Abu Bakr arrived in 1450, married Baguinda's daughter, and after Baguinda's death, became sultan, thereby introducing the sultanate as a political system. Political districts were created in Parang, Pansul, Lati, Gitung, and Luuk, each headed by a panglima or district leader." Last edited by VVV; 3rd August 2006 at 03:40 PM. Reason: additional info and source

4th August 2006, 09:52 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I finally woke up and looked into some research, specifically Peter Gowing's book Muslim Filipino-Heritage and Horizon (Queszon City: New Day Pub., 1979). He was the director Dansalan College, Marawi City and he writes: "The office of panglima (personal representative of the Sultan)...carried certain perogatives and powers in Sulu..."(p.45) Of datus he writes: "There were (and still are) at leaset three kinds of datus in Moro society: datue-in-fact, daut-in-name, and royal datue. Datus-in-fact actually presided over a group of followers and /or controlled a give territory. Datus-in-name were as a courtesy called datus because they were born into aristocratic familiesd, while in reality they commanded no following and had no power."(p.47) He then goes on to mention that the royal datus were related closely as blood relatives to the sultan. In some ways it would seem that Willie may have a point, that it went: Sultan, Panglima, then Datu. Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power. This might explain why some "datu class" pieces have very expensive gold, ivory, silver mounts and others less so, such a wide range.