Twisted rods

RobT · Yesterday, 01:02 AM

Hi All,

Please consider this observation in light of my relative ignorance of Indonesian keris but I count 8 luk and the center ridge appears to wander off point. Could the blade have been shortened?

Sincerely,
RobT

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 01:50 AM

Rob, like a lot of other things with the keris, what you see is not what you get.

The picture shows how we count luk now.

But luk have been counted in different ways in different times & places.

A bloke by the name of "Maisey" has hypothesized that the keris as it had developed during the Mojopahit era in East Jawa had waves (luk) introduced into its form as a type of hierarchical indicator. This hypothesis was founded on information provided by a Bali-Hindu priest, and comparison with still existing ways in which hierarchical indicators within the Balinese socio-cultural fabric are applied now, & have in the past, been applied.

After the Islamic domination of Javanese society, and the separation of Balinese socio-cultural norms from Javanese socio-cultural norms a different method of wave count was introduced by the now Muslim overlords. The reason for this was that it was now necessary to wean the populace of Jawa away from the old Hindu-Buddhist & indigenous systems of belief and bring them under the new Islamic umbrella.

The keris was not only a weapon, it was very much more, and its symbolism was far too intertwined with the old systems of belief, so certain things needed to change. One of those things was the way in which the waves of a keris blade were counted. The new overlords did a similar thing with the Javanese wayang, & for the same reasons.

The above is an over-simplification of a simplification.

This will give a slightly better picture:-

https://kerisattosanaji.com/interpre...e-keris-page-1

even this more complete text only gives a part of the story, there is more in a chapter I contributed to a book of philosophy that was published a couple of years back, but really, I, or somebody else, needs to give some time to trying to get the whole story out there in one piece.

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 01:52 AM

Here is the picture.

Gustav · Yesterday, 10:49 AM

Gentlemen, thank you!

There is this blade in the National Museum of Denmark, EDb 16. Alan, we once argued, if it has one rod on one side, and two on the other. Difficult to see, because the blade is polished in Europe. If yes, it would have the same configuration of Pamor - one twisted rod on "outside", two on holders side.

Of course it likely comes from different cultural context.

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 12:02 PM

Possibly.

David · Yesterday, 05:34 PM

I don't know. I am inclined NOT to see a Balinese blade here. I would be interested in knowing what aspects of this Blade point to Bali for those that think so.
Gustav, do we have a blade length for this keris?

RobT · Yesterday, 06:40 PM

Alan Maisey,

Thanks for your response. I realize that there should be a ninth luk as you indicated. The problem I had was, although the center ridge appears to curve to show luk nine, the blade edges don’t. That was what prompted me to wonder if the tip of the blade hadn’t been modified.

Sincerely,
RobT

Yesterday, 01:02 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 589	Perhaps Naive Question Hi All, Please consider this observation in light of my relative ignorance of Indonesian keris but I count 8 luk and the center ridge appears to wander off point. Could the blade have been shortened? Sincerely, RobT

Yesterday, 01:52 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,099	Here is the picture. Attached Images

Yesterday, 10:49 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,298	Gentlemen, thank you! There is this blade in the National Museum of Denmark, EDb 16. Alan, we once argued, if it has one rod on one side, and two on the other. Difficult to see, because the blade is polished in Europe. If yes, it would have the same configuration of Pamor - one twisted rod on "outside", two on holders side. Of course it likely comes from different cultural context. Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:40 PM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 589	The Reason for My Question Alan Maisey, Thanks for your response. I realize that there should be a ninth luk as you indicated. The problem I had was, although the center ridge appears to curve to show luk nine, the blade edges don’t. That was what prompted me to wonder if the tip of the blade hadn’t been modified. Sincerely, RobT

Yesterday, 01:50 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,099	Rob, like a lot of other things with the keris, what you see is not what you get. The picture shows how we count luk now. But luk have been counted in different ways in different times & places. A bloke by the name of "Maisey" has hypothesized that the keris as it had developed during the Mojopahit era in East Jawa had waves (luk) introduced into its form as a type of hierarchical indicator. This hypothesis was founded on information provided by a Bali-Hindu priest, and comparison with still existing ways in which hierarchical indicators within the Balinese socio-cultural fabric are applied now, & have in the past, been applied. After the Islamic domination of Javanese society, and the separation of Balinese socio-cultural norms from Javanese socio-cultural norms a different method of wave count was introduced by the now Muslim overlords. The reason for this was that it was now necessary to wean the populace of Jawa away from the old Hindu-Buddhist & indigenous systems of belief and bring them under the new Islamic umbrella. The keris was not only a weapon, it was very much more, and its symbolism was far too intertwined with the old systems of belief, so certain things needed to change. One of those things was the way in which the waves of a keris blade were counted. The new overlords did a similar thing with the Javanese wayang, & for the same reasons. The above is an over-simplification of a simplification. This will give a slightly better picture:- https://kerisattosanaji.com/interpre...e-keris-page-1 even this more complete text only gives a part of the story, there is more in a chapter I contributed to a book of philosophy that was published a couple of years back, but really, I, or somebody else, needs to give some time to trying to get the whole story out there in one piece.

Yesterday, 12:02 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,099	Possibly.

Yesterday, 05:34 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,251	I don't know. I am inclined NOT to see a Balinese blade here. I would be interested in knowing what aspects of this Blade point to Bali for those that think so. Gustav, do we have a blade length for this keris?