Spanish Cavalry or British Engineer?

midelburgo · Yesterday, 12:47 AM

Taking advantage of the attention given to the thread on the British Infantry Battle Swords, I would like to ask the forum opinion on this sword:

It is a British Engineer Officer hilt devoid of gilding, with a Spanish Cavalry Officer blade, dated Toledo 1850.

Thinking that the match happened in the XIXth century, what was it, a British Officer wanting a Toledo blade or a Spanish Officer wishing to use a steel guard?

midelburgo · Yesterday, 01:08 AM

I do not know much from the 1857 Engineers pattern (just what comes in Brian Robson book, page 235) but I am developing some theories on the Spanish Cavalry Officers swords in XIXth century. And the example above fits some of them.

The cavalry officers did not have a fixed by decree model. Better not to talk of the 1820s. In the 1830s they oscilated between a brass perforated shell and a hilt with three branches after French models. These are usually called the 1832 patterns. Line cavalry sported straight blades and light cavalry saber blades. Artillery officers, also without a regulation adopted the three branches hilt, but with highly curved blades.

In the 1840s, almost all the Spanish cavalry officers would use the brass perforated shells, that differed in the design and density between the manufacturers. The three branched hilt continued being used by the artillery officers. In the 1860 blades with a minimum of curvature were made so it became unclear if they were intended for line cavalry or light cavalry.

This is a 1850 sword, presumably for the light cavalry. I have seen them from the 1830s. They appear with dates up to 1876. This is the most common type of blade geometry for these swords, but there are at least 4 other possibilities from Toledo (and many others from outside Toledo).

midelburgo · Yesterday, 01:36 AM

The reason a Spanish officer could want to have a British Engineers hilt, is that in 1860 cavalry troopers got the so-called Prussian basket model, with a steel hilt.

There was not to be an oficial model for the officers with a steel basket until 1878, but it seems there existed pressures to exchange their brass perforated shells for steel hilts since the early 1870s. This period was one of unrest, with the dethroning of Queen Isabel in 1868, the proclamation of provisional government in 1870, a new king, Amadeo of Savoy in 1871-1873, republic in 1873-1874 and a new borbon king in 1875. No time to bother with the cavalry officers swords.

So it seems, several different solutions were adopted to fulfill the steel basket question. First, the non-regulation Pseudo-Roberts appeared (anatomical grip). Oldest I have seen dated 1872, the one here, has a new type of blade with a long back edge and is from 1876. This new blade also appeared with ciseled steel hilts, in 1876-1877, predecessors of the 1878 model. Often the old blades were kept, the second sword below has one from 1856, mounted in a 1878 hilt (what had been developed with a completely new blade), but also with the Pseudo-Robert hilts. I have also seen a couple of the old brass baskets that had been silvered over.

It also seems the adoption of the new 1878 model was not taken too seriously, what gave room to the socalled (non-regulation) true-Robert system, with an anatomical grip and a full tang, only from 1893.

A sword with a 1850 blade and a British Engineers steel basket would not be so much out of place in that mess.

Will M · Yesterday, 01:14 PM

My gut feeling is this is a Spanish officer who joined the British army. The sword is piquet weight for dress. Scinde cavalry officers preferred this steel hilt for more hand protection and its obvious desirable appearance. The officer would have to be in the UK to have such a hilt mated to his Spanish blade.

Yesterday, 12:47 AM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 278	Spanish Cavalry or British Engineer? Taking advantage of the attention given to the thread on the British Infantry Battle Swords, I would like to ask the forum opinion on this sword: It is a British Engineer Officer hilt devoid of gilding, with a Spanish Cavalry Officer blade, dated Toledo 1850. Thinking that the match happened in the XIXth century, what was it, a British Officer wanting a Toledo blade or a Spanish Officer wishing to use a steel guard? Attached Images

Yesterday, 01:08 AM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 278	I do not know much from the 1857 Engineers pattern (just what comes in Brian Robson book, page 235) but I am developing some theories on the Spanish Cavalry Officers swords in XIXth century. And the example above fits some of them. The cavalry officers did not have a fixed by decree model. Better not to talk of the 1820s. In the 1830s they oscilated between a brass perforated shell and a hilt with three branches after French models. These are usually called the 1832 patterns. Line cavalry sported straight blades and light cavalry saber blades. Artillery officers, also without a regulation adopted the three branches hilt, but with highly curved blades. In the 1840s, almost all the Spanish cavalry officers would use the brass perforated shells, that differed in the design and density between the manufacturers. The three branched hilt continued being used by the artillery officers. In the 1860 blades with a minimum of curvature were made so it became unclear if they were intended for line cavalry or light cavalry. This is a 1850 sword, presumably for the light cavalry. I have seen them from the 1830s. They appear with dates up to 1876. This is the most common type of blade geometry for these swords, but there are at least 4 other possibilities from Toledo (and many others from outside Toledo). Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; Yesterday at 03:01 AM.

Yesterday, 01:36 AM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 278	The reason a Spanish officer could want to have a British Engineers hilt, is that in 1860 cavalry troopers got the so-called Prussian basket model, with a steel hilt. There was not to be an oficial model for the officers with a steel basket until 1878, but it seems there existed pressures to exchange their brass perforated shells for steel hilts since the early 1870s. This period was one of unrest, with the dethroning of Queen Isabel in 1868, the proclamation of provisional government in 1870, a new king, Amadeo of Savoy in 1871-1873, republic in 1873-1874 and a new borbon king in 1875. No time to bother with the cavalry officers swords. So it seems, several different solutions were adopted to fulfill the steel basket question. First, the non-regulation Pseudo-Roberts appeared (anatomical grip). Oldest I have seen dated 1872, the one here, has a new type of blade with a long back edge and is from 1876. This new blade also appeared with ciseled steel hilts, in 1876-1877, predecessors of the 1878 model. Often the old blades were kept, the second sword below has one from 1856, mounted in a 1878 hilt (what had been developed with a completely new blade), but also with the Pseudo-Robert hilts. I have also seen a couple of the old brass baskets that had been silvered over. It also seems the adoption of the new 1878 model was not taken too seriously, what gave room to the socalled (non-regulation) true-Robert system, with an anatomical grip and a full tang, only from 1893. A sword with a 1850 blade and a British Engineers steel basket would not be so much out of place in that mess. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; Yesterday at 02:52 AM.

Yesterday, 01:14 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 406	My gut feeling is this is a Spanish officer who joined the British army. The sword is piquet weight for dress. Scinde cavalry officers preferred this steel hilt for more hand protection and its obvious desirable appearance. The officer would have to be in the UK to have such a hilt mated to his Spanish blade.