Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

Rick · 26th July 2006, 06:22 PM

There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 06:29 PM

dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

Valjhun · 26th July 2006, 07:43 PM

The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena.

I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

Yannis · 26th July 2006, 07:59 PM

Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.

Zifir · 26th July 2006, 08:15 PM

I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value.
In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture.

But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious.

eftihis · 26th July 2006, 10:58 PM

Beliefs about the existance of dragons are universal!!
You can find myths about dragons from ancient Greek and Norse mythology up to China and pre-columbian america!
But what is important here to understand from which area the dragon head arrived in yataghan scabbards, is the style of its artistic representation.
The dragons that exist on the janisaries book and on early islamic swords remind the chinese esthetic representation of dragons, while the yataghans have an almost "smilling" dragon which in my opinion relates more with the "sea dragons" that we can see on european maps of 16th -17th century.

Valjhun · 27th July 2006, 07:35 AM

Sea dragons on medieval maps are commonly known as whales.

Romans did not use the dragon motif, they used a lot of animals as symbols of their legion stendards but no dragons, as far as I know.

erlikhan · 27th July 2006, 08:57 AM

I think Romans not using dragon is understandable.My suggestion; reptiles in South and East Ajia are bigger and more fearsome,so respected more,and effect people's imagination more than they are in Europe and Mediterennean region.

26th July 2006, 08:15 PM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value. In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture. But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious. Attached Images

26th July 2006, 06:22 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

26th July 2006, 06:29 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

26th July 2006, 07:43 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena. I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

26th July 2006, 07:59 PM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.

26th July 2006, 10:58 PM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Beliefs about the existance of dragons are universal!! You can find myths about dragons from ancient Greek and Norse mythology up to China and pre-columbian america! But what is important here to understand from which area the dragon head arrived in yataghan scabbards, is the style of its artistic representation. The dragons that exist on the janisaries book and on early islamic swords remind the chinese esthetic representation of dragons, while the yataghans have an almost "smilling" dragon which in my opinion relates more with the "sea dragons" that we can see on european maps of 16th -17th century.

27th July 2006, 07:35 AM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Sea dragons on medieval maps are commonly known as whales. Romans did not use the dragon motif, they used a lot of animals as symbols of their legion stendards but no dragons, as far as I know.

27th July 2006, 08:57 AM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I think Romans not using dragon is understandable.My suggestion; reptiles in South and East Ajia are bigger and more fearsome,so respected more,and effect people's imagination more than they are in Europe and Mediterennean region.