Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 04:06 PM

Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure

, but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes.

Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west.

Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not?

Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you.
regards

Rick · 26th July 2006, 04:40 PM

The tip of my Yatagan scabbard .
Dragon or Fish ?

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 05:19 PM

I answer your question by the same question.. Dragon or fish??

-I think- dragon ,evolved to look a bit like fish by the effect of naval men among which yataghans were very popular and perhaps practical to use in narrow spaces on board. I dont know for sure,but I cant imagine any warriors who would like to have a stupid and harmless fish as the animal to represent themselves best

TVV · 26th July 2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The tip of my Yatagan scabbard .
Dragon or Fish ?

In Bulgaria it is called a dolphin, and so it may be neither a dragon, nor fish. However, this does not mean it represents a dolphin, and I have no idea what it was originally intended to be. I personally believe that a dragon would make most sense as a symbol, unless you want to believe an incredible theory, according to which it is a dolphin and was put only on naval yataghans. This type of chape appears to be too widely spread for this theory to be plausible.

Rick · 26th July 2006, 06:22 PM

There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 06:29 PM

dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

Valjhun · 26th July 2006, 07:43 PM

The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena.

I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

Yannis · 26th July 2006, 07:59 PM

Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.

Zifir · 26th July 2006, 08:15 PM

I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value.
In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture.

But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious.

26th July 2006, 04:40 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The tip of my Yatagan scabbard . Dragon or Fish ? Attached Images

26th July 2006, 08:15 PM	#9
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value. In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture. But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious. Attached Images

26th July 2006, 04:06 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure , but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes. Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west. Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not? Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you. regards

26th July 2006, 05:19 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I answer your question by the same question.. Dragon or fish?? -I think- dragon ,evolved to look a bit like fish by the effect of naval men among which yataghans were very popular and perhaps practical to use in narrow spaces on board. I dont know for sure,but I cant imagine any warriors who would like to have a stupid and harmless fish as the animal to represent themselves best

26th July 2006, 06:22 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

26th July 2006, 06:29 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

26th July 2006, 07:43 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena. I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

26th July 2006, 07:59 PM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.