Unknown Spanish colonial or Mexican Basket Hilted sabre

[Magey_McMage]

Apologies for the late reply, the sword has been in transit and I figured there was no point in making multiple posts if it can be avoided. Will attempt to take acceptable photos later but a quick update first:

As above, it has arrived. I would congratulate Bonhams on using a deceptively fine camera lens. Photos appear as if the guard is quite large. That is not the case whatsoever. The guard is extremely form fitting, like a British Scots field officer's sword (a bit of foreshadowing). It is of a non ferrous metal, so their description of a 'silver' hilt may actually be true.

The nut at the top, almost like an old top as in the toy, is threaded. I was able to unscrew it with absolute ease. The bow of the guard is secured a la most sabres to the pommel cap underneath. Whatever metal the guard is made out of has mild flex but I'm not going to do anything severe enough to attempt to fully disassemble it. However, I would guess that the knucklebow, like a Wilkinson, is already secured to the blade, perhaps by a 2nd hidden nut? The pommel cap is set somewhat asymmetrically to fit on the grip and tang. What this means I cannot say but when looking perpendicularly down at the pommel, the center is off by a few mm. Perhaps a way of taking a curved tang off center and doing what you can?

The stats are as follows, from a rough bed estimate:
-Weight == ~775grams, give or take some due to the extreme length and balance
-Blade length == ~85cm, but with a rounded tip that looks quite weathered it may easily have been 86cm back in the day
-Width/thickness == 30mm wide which seems to be exactly where I would assume, but only about 7-8mm thick. I suppose this is consistent with earlier blades, however it may have been a bit wider as heavy grinding marks are observed on the ricasso and the spine.
-Both the spine and the ricasso are angled to form narrow slightly undulating ridges. As this is outside of my general area and god knows I cant afford early 18 or before at this point, I will photograph it later and leave discussion to you all.

I was unable to find any markings whatsoever. Over the ~300 years since the blade was made, it appears to have gone from a flattened hexagonal-to-lenticular profile into a more lentincular one. The engraving is the same on both sides, and you can faintly see those period-appropriate decorations below the fullers. I cannot fully make out the engravings myself but I trust what has already been posted, perhaps combining both sides will make it easier?

As I said above, the hilt is much smaller than photos made it out to be. Fortunately, what I perceived as a round bulbous thing meant only to be hammer gripped is actually quite pleasant in the hand. No curve, but closer to the french 1845/55. Feels quite nice and one can index their thumb on the back nicely. I cannot execute a fully extended Radaelli type grip, but it feels better than most 'spadroon' grips that the north and western Europeans used at this time.

How it feels in the hand? I had initially thought that this was a broadsword, quite literally, based on the images. However, when moving the sword around, it feels closer to what I would consider a shearing sword or thrust-centric backsword. The foible has flex, but is still quite sharp. POB is not far enough down the blade nor is it wide enough to be a hugely effective cutter, although wrist-articulated actions would at least do serious damage to any unarmoured limbs. The spine stays thick or at least flat-ter than the front only to the edge of the double fullered engraved forte, upon which it becomes as sharp as the front. Maybe not a truly symmetric double edged sword, but let's call it 87.5% of the way there?

If you've ever handled a Scots Field officer's sword before, or even the French superior officer's sword, this feels extremely similar. Quite similar to a Spanish-influenced Neapolitan sword I have and wrote about on the SBG forum and is my favorite non-sabre sword of this era even. Like that, there is a certain liveliness to it. Similar to a spadroon but my primary issue with at least the British/German/Swedish styles is those grips are so narrow, with vestigial finger rings, that even if you wanted to cut it is all but impossible to hold them nicely. That is not the case here. It is not optimized for thrusting in that there is anywhere to pinch or finger the guard, but it is a much more neutrally designed grip you can hammer or handshake with equal success.

Whatever the Grenades are made of is the same material as the bars of the guard. The grip was once lacquered as evidenced by remains of black intermittently. Silver wire twist in the grooves. Blade is a bit bent and I may attempt to alleviate that later. A more post-Napoleonic black leather washer a la the French sits at the ricasso. Very thin and a bit rubbery, I have not yet attempted to remove it to see what is underneath but it is <1mm so there are no markings. The shape of the main guard does remind me of this sword here: https://sallyantiques.co.uk/product/...-hilted-sword/ (Please let me know if this should be removed, it has already sold, I am only posting it for reference), with a similar curve of the tail, the boat shaped main section, and the way the bars of the guard extend from it.

Any possible provenance that is mine to guess would probably be a senior officer either mounted or dismounted, but leading a non-mounted unit given it is not as robust as most cavalry sabres are, but that is based solely on my experience with British and French superior officer sabres, which are quite lovely things. Ironic to lock away a very well balanced svelte thrust-and-cut sword behind a rank at which you are unlikely to ever use it.

All of that to say I still have no damned idea what it is. I've gone through all 77 pages of prior threads to open everything I find interesting and am still working my way through those. I am fully open to the idea of it being French or anything else. However, I was under the impression that this specific type of grip and pommel cap was for the Spanish, Mexican, colonial, post Colonial, etc. sphere of Latin America, and I would be curious to see other designs. I buy swords as mechanical pieces of history though, not for the story, so it ultimately matters not where it originated from, only that I can find an answer.

I will attempt to take photos later tonight and do more precise markings. Because the tang is threaded (which I'd frankly date to no earlier than the 2nd quarter of the 19th century IE 1825-1850), the sword is in quite solid condition. A bit of play wrt the pommel cap and the shrunken horn grip, but the remains of the lacquer could also be former leather that has worn and caused the rattle as well.

Profuse apologies for rambling for so long, I simply wanted to make sure I covered every point I could think of. If there are any requests for photos, please let me know. I will probably take some comparing it to various British and French and Spanish/Neapolitan swords I own as well. Thank you!

[midelburgo]

It could be this sort of XVIIIth century blade just grinded all around, becoming smaller.
Waiting for the pictures. I do not remember to have ever seen a Spanish Colonial thing with a threaded pommel. XVIIIth c. smallswords yes.

[Jim McDougall]

I finally received the copy of "Treasures of the Caribbean" by Rodney Hilton Brown (2023) and it is an intriguing compendium of various stories and circumstances in Caribbean history often with cited references .Unfortunately this entry showing what appears to be the same pattern in hilt and blade, does not cite such reference, (p.279).
The blade with same fullering carries the Spanish motto, suggesting the swords were apparently inscribed independently.
While the date/period indicates c. 1720, this is incorrect as this is a Napoleonic period sword.

After some time of going through "Les Sabres" by Jean Lhoste and Patrick Resek (450 pages) I found no comparison as far as the hilt form, and this book is incredibly comprehensive.
I did find that the flaming grenade device was indeed notably present on various hilt form, typically amidst hilt guard assemblies in cartouche, some singular on stirrup hilt sabers, of grenadiers and gendarmerie, as noted.
However I found no cases of these grenades used at root of arms of multi branch hilts as seen here. The style of the branch system suggest in my opinion that this is most likely a limited issue of Spanish officers sword c.1800-20, and of course clearly influenced by French forms. As yet, no match in references on Spanish or Mexican sword form references.

[Rick]

Could the blade form be classified as a colichemarde?

[Jim McDougall]

Thats a really good observation Rick! In looking at the example posted, all the attention to the upper part of the blade, with it gradually tapering to a point does bring to mind the colichemarde, again recalling these kinds of influences.

However the 'colichemarde' was strictly an epee of small sword type for dueling, with the upper part of the blade intended for parry in blade to blade combat, with the forward part still narrow and intended for thrusting.
The Spaniards stubbornly held to their mysterious 'destreza' style of fence, which focused on posturing and thrusting attacks.

The French were for faster lighter swords, both cut and thrust, and indeed full blade contact.

This much heavier blade and hilt form were intended for a degree of combat, but not in the sense of fencing. Ive been studying these situations a bit lately toward the use of dueling swords in California in this period, which means Im just a little less perplexed

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I finally received the copy of "Treasures of the Caribbean" by Rodney Hilton Brown (2023) and it is an intriguing compendium of various stories and circumstances in Caribbean history often with cited references .Unfortunately this entry showing what appears to be the same pattern in hilt and blade, does not cite such reference, (p.279).
The blade with same fullering carries the Spanish motto, suggesting the swords were apparently inscribed independently.
While the date/period indicates c. 1720, this is incorrect as this is a Napoleonic period sword.

I believe it is the same sword, but they say the motto is different, a more catchy one. Artistic license or whatever.

[Tim Simmons]

Just an off the cuff suggestion, the use of silver for the guard might indicate an Andean origin like Boliva with the huge silver mine.

[Jim McDougall]

With this particular hilt style, which indeed seems in accord with Napoleonic French baroque styling so favored by the Mexican government in military fashion, it is tempting to presume these two examples came from the same shop. Since Mexico City was the viceroyalty center of New Spain, possibly in or around there would seem likely. Also Oaxaca became a prevalent sword making center for military officers swords through the 19th century well into 20th, and as far as I know prevails today in edged items.

Good note on the silver used in these hilts, and there were were multiple sources for silver through New Spain of which Potosi in Bolivia was most significant and well known in 16thc. The silver from there was a notable part of the trade in Spanish networks, and by the 18th c. notable deposits in Mexico became sources for use there, San Luis Potosi (named for the Andean location) as well as Taxco became prevalent sources.

Most Mexican swords for officers were of course of the 19th into early 20th century with the Republic of Mexico, and of European styling. I am not aware of any of these being attributed regionally, by state etc. unless this was seen in a blade inscription.

[Magey_McMage]

Apologies for the late update, life keeps getting in the way of things. I could not find the rifle rests I usually use for photography so these are mostly top down. I will not speculate on too much, as almost all of it would be unsubstantiated but I am curious if the hilt is not actual silver but the German Silver/Nickel Silver used by the French. I have taken some comparison photo with this sword next to a standard 1882 and also a non regulation 1855 model of Superior Officer's Sabre with the earlier blade fullers.

Of course like I mentioned earlier, the acorn pommel was threaded. A gentle tug and the blade came out of the hilt quite easily. A bit of steel wool and oil on the tang if only to clean some rust and there is a hallmark on both sides as well.

Right now all I can offer are the photos with no substantive evidence. It appears in my eyes very similar in weighting and feel-in-hand to my French superior officers sabres and others of the same era but I admit I have not handled many Spanish or Mexican swords. Hopefully this will provide more information.

Please bear with me as my replies need approval before posting and I have a few posts worth of photos to upload, sorry!

[Magey_McMage]

Photos part 2: