Question regarding ore used

Triarii · 9th July 2025, 02:15 PM

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2025, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triarii

On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

Well noted! and thats a great insight, any chance you might recall the source? Sahagum was of course one of the Toledo greats, so in the convention of German smiths spuriously using those names and marks it fits.
This falls in with the well known VOC swords of the Dutch East India Co.
It has been suggested that these blades were produced either in Solingen, or more likely in shops with probably Solingen smiths in Netherlands. I have yet to find more definitive on that but it seems reasonable.

The blades coming out of Solingen were exported through Amsterdam or more commonly Rotterdam in the 17th c. so again these connections seem logical.

urbanspaceman · 9th July 2025, 08:32 PM

I spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly what was present in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. No defections to Holland were recorded by the Solingen guilds and I couldn't find any examples of smithies there either. I suspect blades went directly from Solingen to Rotterdam where they were hilted/or not, then sent either North to Scandinavia and the Baltics, or West to the UK.
I'm sure all the Andrea Ferrara blades in Scotland came that route.
Holland will have had smiths of some sort of course, just not the fine experts from Solingen.

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2025, 03:44 AM

C. 1629, Sir John Heyden, on diplomatic mission to Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths who were said to have been escaping the terrors of the Thirty Years war. Heyden knowing the affinity for German blades convinced some of them to immigrate to England to work under royal patronage.
These were the beginnings of the Hounslow enterprise.

These refugees from Solingen included not only swordsmiths but forgers, grinders, polishers and hardeners. As refugees it is not likely there were records of their absence, and if I understand many of these workers were not included in the guild groups overall, it was primarily the smiths.

From Solingen, which is in the Ruhr valley on the Wupper river ..this is a tributary of the larger Rhine which runs through Germany and the Netherlands to Rotterdam, Hollands largest seaport.

From here the Solingen blades were exported to various trade ports including England. These were referred to colloquially as Dutch blades, not because of the phonetic similarity to Duetsch (=German) but because they came out of Rotterdam.

It seems likely there were groups of expatriate Solingen smiths and workers who must have set up shop in Holland. In earlier discussions there was if I recall, several centers where the Dutch East India (VOC) swords of the 18th c were produced or at least assembled. These seem to have had consistant patterns of marking, the VOC symbol or balemark, with the letter of the chamber (there were 6) of the VOC the blades were sent to. There appear to have been year dates added as well, through the 18th c. but most ending c. 1780s.

Not sure how all this applies to Shotley, but we do know the blades being smuggled in by Mohll were from the port of Rotterdam.

Hotspur · 10th July 2025, 06:37 AM

Yes, London port records are rife with manifests containing barrels of blades. Later as well, as noted by Mowbray and British ships going to Philadelphia with trunks and barrels listed as containing canes and umbrellas.

urbanspaceman · 10th July 2025, 08:17 AM

Umbrellas ! ? The British Brolly. What happened to the war of independence? Hey hey! You Guys thought you had won it; until it started to rain.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2025, 04:24 PM

Keith, brilliant entry of THE BOOK!!! on Shotley in concurrent post, and thank you for generously sharing the tenacious and relentless research you have done. While these topics are of course most esoteric, and typically not much noted in much of the 'collecting' world...but those who do find these areas intriguing I can assure you, are most grateful.......count me #1.

Regarding Cologne (Koln) there are some related cognates and perhaps obliquely related items I have been finding passim.

I found notes that Koelle and Coelle are dialectic forms of Koln (readers fact check please).

In "Lore of Arms" (W.Reid, 1976, p.106) it is noted that Casper Kohl (Col) went to Wira, Sweden in 1635 and founded manufactory where other Solingen families joined...there were also factories in Kvarnbacken (sic) and Gorpstrummen.

With the Enrique Col who appears on some Toledo blades, it is noted Col was a Catalan name. I rather question this as the name seems a Spanish version of Henry/Heinrich 'Kohl/Col. ??? one of the number of Solingen smiths who alternatively worked there in the 17th c.

On another note, Eskilstuna, Sweden, known as the city of steel, often stamped blades (it seems 18thc into 19th) with the ANCHOR mark. This has appeared on numbers of hangers, dirks and often led to presumptions of naval association.

The 'anchor' device, recalling somewhat the 'cross and orb' was also related to the familiar multi barred devices used on Spanish blades which was in turn picked up by Solingen in their melange of spurious markings and wordings, mostly of Toledo extraction.

Similar devices sometimes seen on English blades of 17th into 18th c. again resemble these, but sometimes have unusual geometric twists. These are mostly esoteric magic and occult sigils which apply to talismanic motif.

So the diffusion of these marking curiosities reveal the kinds of diffusion of blades, and their makers along with the diaspora of Solingen smiths during the Thirty Years war and illustrates the dynamics perhaps regarding the ore situation.

It would seem that these circumstances would likely include Holland, Rotterdam in particular.

9th July 2025, 08:32 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 673	Holland I spent quite a bit of time trying to ascertain exactly what was present in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. No defections to Holland were recorded by the Solingen guilds and I couldn't find any examples of smithies there either. I suspect blades went directly from Solingen to Rotterdam where they were hilted/or not, then sent either North to Scandinavia and the Baltics, or West to the UK. I'm sure all the Andrea Ferrara blades in Scotland came that route. Holland will have had smiths of some sort of course, just not the fine experts from Solingen.

10th July 2025, 08:17 AM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 673	weather Umbrellas ! ? The British Brolly. What happened to the war of independence? Hey hey! You Guys thought you had won it; until it started to rain.

11th July 2025, 04:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,424	Points of interest Keith, brilliant entry of THE BOOK!!! on Shotley in concurrent post, and thank you for generously sharing the tenacious and relentless research you have done. While these topics are of course most esoteric, and typically not much noted in much of the 'collecting' world...but those who do find these areas intriguing I can assure you, are most grateful.......count me #1. Regarding Cologne (Koln) there are some related cognates and perhaps obliquely related items I have been finding passim. I found notes that Koelle and Coelle are dialectic forms of Koln (readers fact check please). In "Lore of Arms" (W.Reid, 1976, p.106) it is noted that Casper Kohl (Col) went to Wira, Sweden in 1635 and founded manufactory where other Solingen families joined...there were also factories in Kvarnbacken (sic) and Gorpstrummen. With the Enrique Col who appears on some Toledo blades, it is noted Col was a Catalan name. I rather question this as the name seems a Spanish version of Henry/Heinrich 'Kohl/Col. ??? one of the number of Solingen smiths who alternatively worked there in the 17th c. On another note, Eskilstuna, Sweden, known as the city of steel, often stamped blades (it seems 18thc into 19th) with the ANCHOR mark. This has appeared on numbers of hangers, dirks and often led to presumptions of naval association. The 'anchor' device, recalling somewhat the 'cross and orb' was also related to the familiar multi barred devices used on Spanish blades which was in turn picked up by Solingen in their melange of spurious markings and wordings, mostly of Toledo extraction. Similar devices sometimes seen on English blades of 17th into 18th c. again resemble these, but sometimes have unusual geometric twists. These are mostly esoteric magic and occult sigils which apply to talismanic motif. So the diffusion of these marking curiosities reveal the kinds of diffusion of blades, and their makers along with the diaspora of Solingen smiths during the Thirty Years war and illustrates the dynamics perhaps regarding the ore situation. It would seem that these circumstances would likely include Holland, Rotterdam in particular.

9th July 2025, 02:15 PM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 133	On Koln, I've read that the 'Sachgum / Sachgvm' often found on so-called Walloon swords - quite often found alongside a 'Solingen' wolf, was a sign of blades made specifically for the Dutch to export. Supposedly the hilts were added in Koln, wherever the blades were from, but a number of examples have Amsterdam control marks (3 X's under a crown) which is partially obscured by the hilt. It wouldn't make much sense to dismantle a sword to add this, so I assume that either the mark was added by some form of Dutch QA guy in Koln, or that the hilts were added in Amsterdam, after the blade was stamped. Maybe Koln just happened to be where the blades were traded through... perhaps...

10th July 2025, 03:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,424	C. 1629, Sir John Heyden, on diplomatic mission to Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths who were said to have been escaping the terrors of the Thirty Years war. Heyden knowing the affinity for German blades convinced some of them to immigrate to England to work under royal patronage. These were the beginnings of the Hounslow enterprise. These refugees from Solingen included not only swordsmiths but forgers, grinders, polishers and hardeners. As refugees it is not likely there were records of their absence, and if I understand many of these workers were not included in the guild groups overall, it was primarily the smiths. From Solingen, which is in the Ruhr valley on the Wupper river ..this is a tributary of the larger Rhine which runs through Germany and the Netherlands to Rotterdam, Hollands largest seaport. From here the Solingen blades were exported to various trade ports including England. These were referred to colloquially as Dutch blades, not because of the phonetic similarity to Duetsch (=German) but because they came out of Rotterdam. It seems likely there were groups of expatriate Solingen smiths and workers who must have set up shop in Holland. In earlier discussions there was if I recall, several centers where the Dutch East India (VOC) swords of the 18th c were produced or at least assembled. These seem to have had consistant patterns of marking, the VOC symbol or balemark, with the letter of the chamber (there were 6) of the VOC the blades were sent to. There appear to have been year dates added as well, through the 18th c. but most ending c. 1780s. Not sure how all this applies to Shotley, but we do know the blades being smuggled in by Mohll were from the port of Rotterdam.

10th July 2025, 06:37 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 519	Yes, London port records are rife with manifests containing barrels of blades. Later as well, as noted by Mowbray and British ships going to Philadelphia with trunks and barrels listed as containing canes and umbrellas.