Weird "sword"

Ian · 9th July 2025, 10:29 AM

I posted a Google search for images of similar sword and I got back am interesting result. Three months ago, our old friend RSWORD posted the identical sword (same pictures as the auction) on reddit, with the same message of What is it? The responses were not as good as here

Tim Simmons · 9th July 2025, 12:36 PM

There is also a modern terminology of "1707" as an angel number with basically the same interpretation. I personally do not think the number a year date as in manufacturing. I also suggest that it is probably not 18th century, but made to appear and exude ancient origin and mystery. I might suggest that the "J" motif on the blade is a short hand symbol for the Veve for Papa Legba. Papa legba being depicted as an old man with a cane/crutch, like the number people in the know would understand the coding. I uploaded the Veve for Papa Legba and the cane is on the right hand side.

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2025, 03:05 PM

Ian and Tim, you guys are the most phenomenal researchers ever!!!! All this Voodoo material is notably esoteric and very hard to get through in all its complexity, but you guys have condensed it into applicable and understandable descriptions.

In 'the old days'

many moons ago, I recall trying to get into all this in the study of African weapons. The slow snail mail, trying to find reference titles etc was daunting, time consuming and not overall productive.
The use of todays online sources, AI, quick responses...and with guys like you at the helm.........these kinds of results are phenomenal!!!

Great find with the same sword presented on the 'social' media, with the expected playful, silly and feeble projections. These venues, like facebook as well, are not serious study forums as we fortunately have here.

Especially important is the recognition here toward the '1707' number.
One of the most notable items in the study of arms historically, particularly markings , are number combinations.

The most prevalent instances are the 'magic numbers' such as 1414 or 1441 on European blades often taken as dates by the unititiated. Many of these combinations have even been attributed to certain makers (Wagner, 1967).
These are cases of alpha numeric value applied much in the manner of cabalistic interpretation.

This forum is indeed amazing, and thanks to this kind of willingness to go the extra mile to present great researched perspectives in discussions.
Here we learn together, I know I do, every day!
Thank you guys!

Tim Simmons · 9th July 2025, 04:48 PM

Thank you Jim. Something would quite liked to have.

Ian · 9th July 2025, 07:58 PM

Jim, it is indeed amazing what information is readily accessible online now. When I started out in my academic career in the 1960s, finding references meant going to the library, taking Index Medicus (enormous volumes per calendar year) and laboriously looking through them for relevant titles. It was painful reading the small print.

I feel privileged to have lived through the last 60 years and experienced the massive increase in access to knowledge.

ausjulius · 11th July 2025, 06:28 AM

I think we are onto something that this is something from the Carribbean. The numbers are very much in the 18th and 19th century style.. look at the downward sloping 7s.
I don't think it's African as such text would be chiseled in in a different method . Also there would be some native metal working techniques visible and some native artistry. Here it is not.
I think it is indeed something peculiar from the Carribbean islands. Maybe Haiti maybe not.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2025, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

I think we are onto something that this is something from the Carribbean. The numbers are very much in the 18th and 19th century style.. look at the downward sloping 7s.
I don't think it's African as such text would be chiseled in in a different method . Also there would be some native metal working techniques visible and some native artistry. Here it is not.
I think it is indeed something peculiar from the Carribbean islands. Maybe Haiti maybe not.

Agreed. It seems earlier the suggestions were that this item, rather than being an odd tool or implement may have ritual type significance, perhaps related to West African religious associations. This of course largely pertains to primarily 'VODUN' which syncretically merged with other religious followings into what became known as VOODOO.
This seems to point to Haiti and what is now Dominican Republic.

Good observations on the period and style of the characters on the blade, which may be device or sigil and number combinations rather than date, though the potential for commemorative date is possible as well.

9th July 2025, 12:36 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,881	There is also a modern terminology of "1707" as an angel number with basically the same interpretation. I personally do not think the number a year date as in manufacturing. I also suggest that it is probably not 18th century, but made to appear and exude ancient origin and mystery. I might suggest that the "J" motif on the blade is a short hand symbol for the Veve for Papa Legba. Papa legba being depicted as an old man with a cane/crutch, like the number people in the know would understand the coding. I uploaded the Veve for Papa Legba and the cane is on the right hand side. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th July 2025 at 01:28 PM.

9th July 2025, 10:29 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	I posted a Google search for images of similar sword and I got back am interesting result. Three months ago, our old friend RSWORD posted the identical sword (same pictures as the auction) on reddit, with the same message of What is it? The responses were not as good as here

9th July 2025, 03:05 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,536	Ian and Tim, you guys are the most phenomenal researchers ever!!!! All this Voodoo material is notably esoteric and very hard to get through in all its complexity, but you guys have condensed it into applicable and understandable descriptions. In 'the old days' many moons ago, I recall trying to get into all this in the study of African weapons. The slow snail mail, trying to find reference titles etc was daunting, time consuming and not overall productive. The use of todays online sources, AI, quick responses...and with guys like you at the helm.........these kinds of results are phenomenal!!! Great find with the same sword presented on the 'social' media, with the expected playful, silly and feeble projections. These venues, like facebook as well, are not serious study forums as we fortunately have here. Especially important is the recognition here toward the '1707' number. One of the most notable items in the study of arms historically, particularly markings , are number combinations. The most prevalent instances are the 'magic numbers' such as 1414 or 1441 on European blades often taken as dates by the unititiated. Many of these combinations have even been attributed to certain makers (Wagner, 1967). These are cases of alpha numeric value applied much in the manner of cabalistic interpretation. This forum is indeed amazing, and thanks to this kind of willingness to go the extra mile to present great researched perspectives in discussions. Here we learn together, I know I do, every day! Thank you guys!

9th July 2025, 04:48 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,881	Thank you Jim. Something would quite liked to have.

9th July 2025, 07:58 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	Jim, it is indeed amazing what information is readily accessible online now. When I started out in my academic career in the 1960s, finding references meant going to the library, taking Index Medicus (enormous volumes per calendar year) and laboriously looking through them for relevant titles. It was painful reading the small print. I feel privileged to have lived through the last 60 years and experienced the massive increase in access to knowledge.

11th July 2025, 06:28 AM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 458	I think we are onto something that this is something from the Carribbean. The numbers are very much in the 18th and 19th century style.. look at the downward sloping 7s. I don't think it's African as such text would be chiseled in in a different method . Also there would be some native metal working techniques visible and some native artistry. Here it is not. I think it is indeed something peculiar from the Carribbean islands. Maybe Haiti maybe not.