Weird "sword"

Ian · 9th July 2025, 06:02 AM

Tim, thank you for this interpretation of 1707. Outside-the-box thinking indeed!

Great stuff.

This is why I think this forum is special--smart people, good ideas, and a willingness to express unconventional interpretations.

Ian · 9th July 2025, 06:23 AM

Tim, I did a similar search using Google's AI engine and here is what it said:

Question: What do the numbers 1, 7, 0 and date 1707 mean in Voodoo culture?

Answer:

While Voodoo has a rich history rooted in West African traditions and syncretized with Catholicism, particularly in Haiti and Louisiana, the year 1707 does not appear to hold a specific, widely recognized significance within Voodoo history itself.
My search results show that 1707 is mentioned in the context of:

• Witchcraft laws in Great Britain: The union of Scotland with England in 1707 led to more tightly controlled prosecutions of witches. This is a historical event related to witchcraft in a European context, not directly to the development or practices of Voodoo.
• A study code (ZA1707): A search result from GESIS (a German social science infrastructure service) mentions "Study: ZA1707 - The Search for Meaning - the New Goals in Life." This is likely an internal code for a research study and not a significant date for Voodoo.
The origins of Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo can be traced back to the 16th-19th centuries, with enslaved Africans bringing their traditions to the Americas. Key developments include:
• 16th-19th centuries: The blending of West and Central African religions with Catholicism in colonial Saint-Domingue (Haiti) and Louisiana.
• 1791 slave revolt in Haiti: This event led to a bolstered presence of Voodoo followers in places like New Orleans.
Therefore, while 1707 falls within the broader period of Voodoo's development, it doesn't stand out as a pivotal year in the religion's timeline. The significance lies more in the overall processes of syncretism, resistance, and the continuity of African spiritual practices in the diaspora.
While specific numerical systems like Western numerology aren't central to Vodou in the same way they might be in other esoteric traditions, numbers do hold significant meaning within the context of Vodou, often in relation to specific Lwa (spirits) and their associated rituals and attributes. It's more about their association with specific entities or concepts than a universal, abstract numerical code.

Here's a breakdown of how the numbers 1, 7, and 0 might be understood:

1 (One):

• Unity and the Divine: In many spiritual systems, including those that influenced Vodou, "one" often represents the ultimate source, the creator, or the unity of all things. In Vodou, this could broadly relate to Bondye, the distant, transcendent creator deity.
• Beginning/Source: As the first number, it signifies the origin or foundation.
• Self-reliance, Individual Power: Some numerological interpretations, which may find echoes in Vodou's emphasis on personal connection with spirits, link 1 to individual purpose, ambition, and self.

7 (Seven):

• Spiritual Completeness and Perfection: This is a very significant number in many spiritual traditions, and it carries weight in Vodou as well. It's often associated with spiritual perfection, wisdom, and mystical connection.
• Lwa Associations:
o Ogun: The Lwa of iron, war, and justice, Ogun is strongly associated with the number 7, reflecting his powerful influence and complete nature as both warrior and craftsman.
o Elegua (Eshu): The Lwa of crossroads, communication, and trickery, Elegua is associated with numbers like 3, 7, 21, 101, and 1001. The 7 here can represent the "seven directions" Elegua can move, highlighting his ability to navigate different realms.
o Yemaya (Yemoja): The Lwa of the ocean, motherhood, and fertility, Yemaya is associated with 7, 14, and 21. The 7 here relates to the "seven seas" and her nurturing virtues.
o Oshun: The Lwa of love, beauty, and abundance, Oshun is associated with 5, 7, 9, 12, and 21. The 7 can represent the "seven colors of the rainbow" and her virtues.
• Planetary and Lunar Cycles: In broader occult and numerological contexts (which sometimes intersect with Vodou, especially in a syncretic way), 7 is linked to the planets known to the ancients and the lunar phases.

0 (Zero):

• Potential and Nothingness/Allness: Zero, representing an absence, can also symbolize the void from which all things emerge, or the ultimate potential for creation. It signifies the beginning of a journey (like "The Fool" in Tarot, which can be linked to 0).
• The Void/Cosmic Egg: In some cosmologies, 0 can represent the unmanifested, the ultimate source before creation takes form.
• Moon (in some contexts): While not universally applied, some belief systems associate 0 with the moon due to its round shape.
Important Considerations:
• Lwa-Specific Associations: The most prominent numerical meanings in Vodou often come from their direct association with specific Lwa. Rituals and offerings for certain Lwa will involve specific numbers of items or repetitions that correspond to that Lwa's attributes and preferences.
• Syncretism: Vodou is a syncretic religion, blending West African traditions with Catholicism and other influences. This means that numerical symbolism might also draw from these other sources, though always filtered through the Vodou lens.
• Regional Variations: Like any living tradition, Vodou has variations depending on the region (e.g., Haitian Vodou vs. Louisiana Voodoo) and lineage. Specific numerical meanings might vary subtly between different houses or practitioners.
• Veves: While not numbers themselves, the intricate veves (sacred drawings made on the ground) are highly symbolic and represent specific Lwa. The patterns within these veves often contain geometric and numerical principles, even if not explicitly numerical in the way we usually think.
In summary, while a rigid "numerology chart" for Vodou is unlikely to be found, the numbers 1, 7, and 0 (and others, like 3 and 9) hold significant, though often contextual, meaning through their connections to the Lwa and the broader spiritual principles of the tradition.

Ian · 9th July 2025, 10:29 AM

I posted a Google search for images of similar sword and I got back am interesting result. Three months ago, our old friend RSWORD posted the identical sword (same pictures as the auction) on reddit, with the same message of What is it? The responses were not as good as here

Tim Simmons · 9th July 2025, 12:36 PM

There is also a modern terminology of "1707" as an angel number with basically the same interpretation. I personally do not think the number a year date as in manufacturing. I also suggest that it is probably not 18th century, but made to appear and exude ancient origin and mystery. I might suggest that the "J" motif on the blade is a short hand symbol for the Veve for Papa Legba. Papa legba being depicted as an old man with a cane/crutch, like the number people in the know would understand the coding. I uploaded the Veve for Papa Legba and the cane is on the right hand side.

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2025, 03:05 PM

Ian and Tim, you guys are the most phenomenal researchers ever!!!! All this Voodoo material is notably esoteric and very hard to get through in all its complexity, but you guys have condensed it into applicable and understandable descriptions.

In 'the old days'

many moons ago, I recall trying to get into all this in the study of African weapons. The slow snail mail, trying to find reference titles etc was daunting, time consuming and not overall productive.
The use of todays online sources, AI, quick responses...and with guys like you at the helm.........these kinds of results are phenomenal!!!

Great find with the same sword presented on the 'social' media, with the expected playful, silly and feeble projections. These venues, like facebook as well, are not serious study forums as we fortunately have here.

Especially important is the recognition here toward the '1707' number.
One of the most notable items in the study of arms historically, particularly markings , are number combinations.

The most prevalent instances are the 'magic numbers' such as 1414 or 1441 on European blades often taken as dates by the unititiated. Many of these combinations have even been attributed to certain makers (Wagner, 1967).
These are cases of alpha numeric value applied much in the manner of cabalistic interpretation.

This forum is indeed amazing, and thanks to this kind of willingness to go the extra mile to present great researched perspectives in discussions.
Here we learn together, I know I do, every day!
Thank you guys!

Tim Simmons · 9th July 2025, 04:48 PM

Thank you Jim. Something would quite liked to have.

Ian · 9th July 2025, 07:58 PM

Jim, it is indeed amazing what information is readily accessible online now. When I started out in my academic career in the 1960s, finding references meant going to the library, taking Index Medicus (enormous volumes per calendar year) and laboriously looking through them for relevant titles. It was painful reading the small print.

I feel privileged to have lived through the last 60 years and experienced the massive increase in access to knowledge.

9th July 2025, 06:23 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	Tim, I did a similar search using Google's AI engine and here is what it said: Question: What do the numbers 1, 7, 0 and date 1707 mean in Voodoo culture? Answer: While Voodoo has a rich history rooted in West African traditions and syncretized with Catholicism, particularly in Haiti and Louisiana, the year 1707 does not appear to hold a specific, widely recognized significance within Voodoo history itself. My search results show that 1707 is mentioned in the context of: • Witchcraft laws in Great Britain: The union of Scotland with England in 1707 led to more tightly controlled prosecutions of witches. This is a historical event related to witchcraft in a European context, not directly to the development or practices of Voodoo. • A study code (ZA1707): A search result from GESIS (a German social science infrastructure service) mentions "Study: ZA1707 - The Search for Meaning - the New Goals in Life." This is likely an internal code for a research study and not a significant date for Voodoo. The origins of Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo can be traced back to the 16th-19th centuries, with enslaved Africans bringing their traditions to the Americas. Key developments include: • 16th-19th centuries: The blending of West and Central African religions with Catholicism in colonial Saint-Domingue (Haiti) and Louisiana. • 1791 slave revolt in Haiti: This event led to a bolstered presence of Voodoo followers in places like New Orleans. Therefore, while 1707 falls within the broader period of Voodoo's development, it doesn't stand out as a pivotal year in the religion's timeline. The significance lies more in the overall processes of syncretism, resistance, and the continuity of African spiritual practices in the diaspora. While specific numerical systems like Western numerology aren't central to Vodou in the same way they might be in other esoteric traditions, numbers do hold significant meaning within the context of Vodou, often in relation to specific Lwa (spirits) and their associated rituals and attributes. It's more about their association with specific entities or concepts than a universal, abstract numerical code. Here's a breakdown of how the numbers 1, 7, and 0 might be understood: 1 (One): • Unity and the Divine: In many spiritual systems, including those that influenced Vodou, "one" often represents the ultimate source, the creator, or the unity of all things. In Vodou, this could broadly relate to Bondye, the distant, transcendent creator deity. • Beginning/Source: As the first number, it signifies the origin or foundation. • Self-reliance, Individual Power: Some numerological interpretations, which may find echoes in Vodou's emphasis on personal connection with spirits, link 1 to individual purpose, ambition, and self. 7 (Seven): • Spiritual Completeness and Perfection: This is a very significant number in many spiritual traditions, and it carries weight in Vodou as well. It's often associated with spiritual perfection, wisdom, and mystical connection. • Lwa Associations: o Ogun: The Lwa of iron, war, and justice, Ogun is strongly associated with the number 7, reflecting his powerful influence and complete nature as both warrior and craftsman. o Elegua (Eshu): The Lwa of crossroads, communication, and trickery, Elegua is associated with numbers like 3, 7, 21, 101, and 1001. The 7 here can represent the "seven directions" Elegua can move, highlighting his ability to navigate different realms. o Yemaya (Yemoja): The Lwa of the ocean, motherhood, and fertility, Yemaya is associated with 7, 14, and 21. The 7 here relates to the "seven seas" and her nurturing virtues. o Oshun: The Lwa of love, beauty, and abundance, Oshun is associated with 5, 7, 9, 12, and 21. The 7 can represent the "seven colors of the rainbow" and her virtues. • Planetary and Lunar Cycles: In broader occult and numerological contexts (which sometimes intersect with Vodou, especially in a syncretic way), 7 is linked to the planets known to the ancients and the lunar phases. 0 (Zero): • Potential and Nothingness/Allness: Zero, representing an absence, can also symbolize the void from which all things emerge, or the ultimate potential for creation. It signifies the beginning of a journey (like "The Fool" in Tarot, which can be linked to 0). • The Void/Cosmic Egg: In some cosmologies, 0 can represent the unmanifested, the ultimate source before creation takes form. • Moon (in some contexts): While not universally applied, some belief systems associate 0 with the moon due to its round shape. Important Considerations: • Lwa-Specific Associations: The most prominent numerical meanings in Vodou often come from their direct association with specific Lwa. Rituals and offerings for certain Lwa will involve specific numbers of items or repetitions that correspond to that Lwa's attributes and preferences. • Syncretism: Vodou is a syncretic religion, blending West African traditions with Catholicism and other influences. This means that numerical symbolism might also draw from these other sources, though always filtered through the Vodou lens. • Regional Variations: Like any living tradition, Vodou has variations depending on the region (e.g., Haitian Vodou vs. Louisiana Voodoo) and lineage. Specific numerical meanings might vary subtly between different houses or practitioners. • Veves: While not numbers themselves, the intricate veves (sacred drawings made on the ground) are highly symbolic and represent specific Lwa. The patterns within these veves often contain geometric and numerical principles, even if not explicitly numerical in the way we usually think. In summary, while a rigid "numerology chart" for Vodou is unlikely to be found, the numbers 1, 7, and 0 (and others, like 3 and 9) hold significant, though often contextual, meaning through their connections to the Lwa and the broader spiritual principles of the tradition.

9th July 2025, 12:36 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,884	There is also a modern terminology of "1707" as an angel number with basically the same interpretation. I personally do not think the number a year date as in manufacturing. I also suggest that it is probably not 18th century, but made to appear and exude ancient origin and mystery. I might suggest that the "J" motif on the blade is a short hand symbol for the Veve for Papa Legba. Papa legba being depicted as an old man with a cane/crutch, like the number people in the know would understand the coding. I uploaded the Veve for Papa Legba and the cane is on the right hand side. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th July 2025 at 01:28 PM.

9th July 2025, 06:02 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	Tim, thank you for this interpretation of 1707. Outside-the-box thinking indeed! Great stuff. This is why I think this forum is special--smart people, good ideas, and a willingness to express unconventional interpretations.

9th July 2025, 10:29 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	I posted a Google search for images of similar sword and I got back am interesting result. Three months ago, our old friend RSWORD posted the identical sword (same pictures as the auction) on reddit, with the same message of What is it? The responses were not as good as here

9th July 2025, 03:05 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,537	Ian and Tim, you guys are the most phenomenal researchers ever!!!! All this Voodoo material is notably esoteric and very hard to get through in all its complexity, but you guys have condensed it into applicable and understandable descriptions. In 'the old days' many moons ago, I recall trying to get into all this in the study of African weapons. The slow snail mail, trying to find reference titles etc was daunting, time consuming and not overall productive. The use of todays online sources, AI, quick responses...and with guys like you at the helm.........these kinds of results are phenomenal!!! Great find with the same sword presented on the 'social' media, with the expected playful, silly and feeble projections. These venues, like facebook as well, are not serious study forums as we fortunately have here. Especially important is the recognition here toward the '1707' number. One of the most notable items in the study of arms historically, particularly markings , are number combinations. The most prevalent instances are the 'magic numbers' such as 1414 or 1441 on European blades often taken as dates by the unititiated. Many of these combinations have even been attributed to certain makers (Wagner, 1967). These are cases of alpha numeric value applied much in the manner of cabalistic interpretation. This forum is indeed amazing, and thanks to this kind of willingness to go the extra mile to present great researched perspectives in discussions. Here we learn together, I know I do, every day! Thank you guys!

9th July 2025, 04:48 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,884	Thank you Jim. Something would quite liked to have.

9th July 2025, 07:58 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	Jim, it is indeed amazing what information is readily accessible online now. When I started out in my academic career in the 1960s, finding references meant going to the library, taking Index Medicus (enormous volumes per calendar year) and laboriously looking through them for relevant titles. It was painful reading the small print. I feel privileged to have lived through the last 60 years and experienced the massive increase in access to knowledge.