Weird "sword"

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2025, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

Looks like santaria or some voodoo script to be honest...

What sort of Santaria script/Voodoo script?

While Africa had its own symbolisms, and Voodoo as well as Santaria evolved from the West African Vodun religion not sure this number (1707) or the 'J' ? have such connections. Do you mean the curious shapes on the blade?
Actually they remind me more of Central African 'throwing knives'......but West Coast Africa had some bizarre shapes on blades in Dahomey (Benin).

Tim Simmons · 7th July 2025, 07:17 PM

With a little research I do believe that ausjulius is on the money. This is some kind of spiritual/magic weapon related to other machete like blades in West Africa vodun believes. We have example in the archive with some understanding of there meaning. The arcane ancient look is a feature of these things which are in the archive. Gubasa is a starting point.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2025, 12:54 AM

At the risk of a clumsy interpretation, I decided to look further into the idea of this having West African religious/spiritual associations and found some potential ideas amidst the complexity of these.

My speculation is this item may be from the Haitian/Dominican sphere, and potentially, owing to the very old appearance of the metal, could date to the French colonial period there. Further it may have connection to the Haitian Revolution (1791-1804) the insurrection of slaves, mulattos under the suzerainty of French overlords.

The religions of West Africa (many people here were Fon, Ewa and Aja from Dahomey) who practiced VODUN, which later evolved into 'Voodoo' in the southern states of US. ..as well as spirit pantheons from the western Congo became the complex African religion syncretic with Catholicism.
This is connected to the Santaria noted.

While monotheistic, there is a highly complex pantheon of gods/spirits termed IWA who are humans who act as intermediaries with this pantheon.

Without getting myself too far 'into the weeds' (too late) ..
there is one named 'Ogun' (?) who is associated with PETWO, defender of Rada values, and carries weaponry,

The Petwo side of things is 'hot' ..assiociated with fire, violence in these defenses of Rada, the softer cooler values.

I am thinking that somehow this might be a ceremonial bearing or perhaps inspirational weapon in which the blade resembles flames in these respects.

While admittedly somewhat wild in speculative suggestion, it seems to be in course with this VERY unusual 'weapon', which aligns more spiritually than as an actual weapon.

Ian · 8th July 2025, 03:09 AM

Well, this is getting interesting! This thread may go on for a while in exploring the mystical elements of this item. I find the possible African spiritual connection very interesting, and its possible entree into the U.S. via slavery.

Tim Simmons · 8th July 2025, 06:23 AM

It could be an very stylised Haitian Vodou version of Shango axe morphed into a machete, a significant element in Haitia.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2025, 04:58 PM

Tim that is a viable suggestion as what we are dealing with is the stylized and often temporal interpretations of spiritual concepts and beliefs.
I think Ausjulius' idea is well placed and looking back to discussions in which he was a key contributor back in 2009 showed his keen interest in these areas.

The Dahomean hwi and the varied types of 'ada' swords of the Kingdom of Benin in Nigeria seem to have many variations of 'themed' ceremonial swords. In many cases they were stylistically like many of the actual weapons used, however many were so artistically oriented that they would not have been feasible as battle weapons.

In many cases, the artistic styling might be subtle, as it would seem possibly pertaining to the example we are discussing.

In reading through some posts it was noted that another symbolic element in Dahomean regions was the shark (see the cutlass illustrated below with bifurcated tip and handle).
The plate of hwi examples is from "Sabers Decores du Dahomey" Palau Marti, Objets du Mondes, VII: 4, 1967.

The hwi shown with briquet hilt illustrates the interpolation of colonial weapons with tribal blades as often the case in ethnographic weapons. While initially thought this was of course a French briquet, it was found actually this was German (by regimental marks on hilt). While French colonized most of these West African areas, the Germans were present in Togo.

7th July 2025, 07:17 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,881	With a little research I do believe that ausjulius is on the money. This is some kind of spiritual/magic weapon related to other machete like blades in West Africa vodun believes. We have example in the archive with some understanding of there meaning. The arcane ancient look is a feature of these things which are in the archive. Gubasa is a starting point. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th July 2025 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Remembering

8th July 2025, 06:23 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,881	It could be an very stylised Haitian Vodou version of Shango axe morphed into a machete, a significant element in Haitia. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 8th July 2025 at 04:11 PM.

8th July 2025, 04:58 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,536	Tim that is a viable suggestion as what we are dealing with is the stylized and often temporal interpretations of spiritual concepts and beliefs. I think Ausjulius' idea is well placed and looking back to discussions in which he was a key contributor back in 2009 showed his keen interest in these areas. The Dahomean hwi and the varied types of 'ada' swords of the Kingdom of Benin in Nigeria seem to have many variations of 'themed' ceremonial swords. In many cases they were stylistically like many of the actual weapons used, however many were so artistically oriented that they would not have been feasible as battle weapons. In many cases, the artistic styling might be subtle, as it would seem possibly pertaining to the example we are discussing. In reading through some posts it was noted that another symbolic element in Dahomean regions was the shark (see the cutlass illustrated below with bifurcated tip and handle). The plate of hwi examples is from "Sabers Decores du Dahomey" Palau Marti, Objets du Mondes, VII: 4, 1967. The hwi shown with briquet hilt illustrates the interpolation of colonial weapons with tribal blades as often the case in ethnographic weapons. While initially thought this was of course a French briquet, it was found actually this was German (by regimental marks on hilt). While French colonized most of these West African areas, the Germans were present in Togo. Attached Images

8th July 2025, 12:54 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,536	At the risk of a clumsy interpretation, I decided to look further into the idea of this having West African religious/spiritual associations and found some potential ideas amidst the complexity of these. My speculation is this item may be from the Haitian/Dominican sphere, and potentially, owing to the very old appearance of the metal, could date to the French colonial period there. Further it may have connection to the Haitian Revolution (1791-1804) the insurrection of slaves, mulattos under the suzerainty of French overlords. The religions of West Africa (many people here were Fon, Ewa and Aja from Dahomey) who practiced VODUN, which later evolved into 'Voodoo' in the southern states of US. ..as well as spirit pantheons from the western Congo became the complex African religion syncretic with Catholicism. This is connected to the Santaria noted. While monotheistic, there is a highly complex pantheon of gods/spirits termed IWA who are humans who act as intermediaries with this pantheon. Without getting myself too far 'into the weeds' (too late) .. there is one named 'Ogun' (?) who is associated with PETWO, defender of Rada values, and carries weaponry, The Petwo side of things is 'hot' ..assiociated with fire, violence in these defenses of Rada, the softer cooler values. I am thinking that somehow this might be a ceremonial bearing or perhaps inspirational weapon in which the blade resembles flames in these respects. While admittedly somewhat wild in speculative suggestion, it seems to be in course with this VERY unusual 'weapon', which aligns more spiritually than as an actual weapon.

8th July 2025, 03:09 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,461	Well, this is getting interesting! This thread may go on for a while in exploring the mystical elements of this item. I find the possible African spiritual connection very interesting, and its possible entree into the U.S. via slavery.