OK Corral and coach guns

David R · Today, 12:10 AM

A couple from me.
Growing up in (1970's)Shrewsbury UK a place where gun shops proliferated and often carried antiques my boyhood hangout was one of these. The back wall was hung with pistols, rifles and smoothbores and the enthusiastic staff shared readily to an interested schoolboy. One of these guns was a short, 18", twist barreled double with "Wells Fargo" on the midrib. It rattled like no ones business. A comment above explains a lot, yep, 99% sure it was a Liege product made for the US market, and a mystery explained!
Back to Doc' an article in "Guns and Ammo" surmised that his personal side arm was a cut down 12 bore, pistol grip stock and 12"barrel,hung on a lanyard under his coat, as reputedly carried by Brigham Young's bodyguard, Orrin Porter Rockwell. (Who is well worth a google).

Jim McDougall · Today, 01:27 AM

Thank you for responding David!! and especially for the great story!! It is so amazing to share these memories of our youth, and realize how much our number were so much alike before our pursuit of arms became lifelong fascinations.
That old shotgun you saw there truly brings the question, 'did Liege' create shotguns FOR the famed Wells Fargo? or had they reached the same kind of renown as the 'Bowie' knife (virtually most in the US were made in Sheffield) and marketed in the UK accordingly?

According to what I have found through the years, the 'street howitzer' (as called by Wyatt) used by Doc, was picked up by him at the Wells Fargo office on the way to the shootout. These were typically 12 guage and had shorter barrels than the average, and measured 18-24". As far as I have known, none of these ever had altered stock, nor would have had a lanyard.......this article sounds as if they are suggesting it was Docs personal weapon. He had two revolvers in his coat pockets, the standard manner of carry in town in those days.
The strapped 'cowboy' rig holsters were only worn on the range. Even lawmen packed revolvers in reinforced pockets, as did Wyatt.

Good note on Orrin Porter Rockwell, Brigham Youngs 'Angel of Death' is indeed worth a look. He was the 'enforcer' and body guard for the famed Mormon prophet. While not sure if he had a shotgun, he did have a most unusually modified Colt revolver with short, sawed off barrel........one of the original 'stub nose' specials.

urbanspaceman · Today, 09:31 AM

David! Shrewsbury was awash with weapons?
Why was that? You make it sound like it was the norm. Was it a dangerous place? More dangerous than Tyneside!? Nowhere except Sicily was more dangerous than Newcastle upon Tyne and we never had a plethora of gun-shops. We had two, both exclusively sporting and fowling stockists who would never deign to speak to curious youngsters.
Perhaps it was your nuclear affiliation prompted folk to be well armed. You've got four minutes... grab your gun and pass the ammo!

CutlassCollector · Today, 12:50 PM

The British Royal Mail while not as romantic as Well Fargo also carried official guards armed with two pistols and a blunderbuss. Sometimes with a spring loaded bayonet as the one from The Postal Museum shows.

Both pistols and blunderbuss were usually brass barrelled presumably because the guard was outside no matter the weather. They were stamped for the Mail around the circumference of the muzzle. Shown on a pistol here.

"Something I discovered recently that I thought I would open up for potential correction:
the trumpet like muzzle of a blunderbuss was not to spread the shot - a short barrel would do that - it was to facilitate re-loading while sitting on a moving coach."

Yes, I read some research from a ballistics expert sometime ago and he concluded that the shape of the muzzle, even those with the flattened cylinder shape, had little effect on the spread of shot. Make an explosion behind a load of lead balls and they all head off in a, mostly, straight line.
The flared muzzle was therefor good for facilitating reloading with a handful of balls in a coach or at sea where they were also often used. Another factor to consider was the intimidation of the huge muzzle. Useful perhaps if a quick reload not possible and letting off a warning shot was not a good tactic!

Another popular story about filling blunderbuss's with old nails and rocks is apparently also largely false - unless of course you are in dire circumstance and run out of ammo.
There is a real danger of scrap jamming in the barrel and blowing up the gun.

Today, 09:31 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 641	Shrewsbury David! Shrewsbury was awash with weapons? Why was that? You make it sound like it was the norm. Was it a dangerous place? More dangerous than Tyneside!? Nowhere except Sicily was more dangerous than Newcastle upon Tyne and we never had a plethora of gun-shops. We had two, both exclusively sporting and fowling stockists who would never deign to speak to curious youngsters. Perhaps it was your nuclear affiliation prompted folk to be well armed. You've got four minutes... grab your gun and pass the ammo!

Today, 12:50 PM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 360	The British Royal Mail while not as romantic as Well Fargo also carried official guards armed with two pistols and a blunderbuss. Sometimes with a spring loaded bayonet as the one from The Postal Museum shows. Both pistols and blunderbuss were usually brass barrelled presumably because the guard was outside no matter the weather. They were stamped for the Mail around the circumference of the muzzle. Shown on a pistol here. "Something I discovered recently that I thought I would open up for potential correction: the trumpet like muzzle of a blunderbuss was not to spread the shot - a short barrel would do that - it was to facilitate re-loading while sitting on a moving coach." Yes, I read some research from a ballistics expert sometime ago and he concluded that the shape of the muzzle, even those with the flattened cylinder shape, had little effect on the spread of shot. Make an explosion behind a load of lead balls and they all head off in a, mostly, straight line. The flared muzzle was therefor good for facilitating reloading with a handful of balls in a coach or at sea where they were also often used. Another factor to consider was the intimidation of the huge muzzle. Useful perhaps if a quick reload not possible and letting off a warning shot was not a good tactic! Another popular story about filling blunderbuss's with old nails and rocks is apparently also largely false - unless of course you are in dire circumstance and run out of ammo. There is a real danger of scrap jamming in the barrel and blowing up the gun. Attached Images

Today, 12:10 AM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,122	A couple from me. Growing up in (1970's)Shrewsbury UK a place where gun shops proliferated and often carried antiques my boyhood hangout was one of these. The back wall was hung with pistols, rifles and smoothbores and the enthusiastic staff shared readily to an interested schoolboy. One of these guns was a short, 18", twist barreled double with "Wells Fargo" on the midrib. It rattled like no ones business. A comment above explains a lot, yep, 99% sure it was a Liege product made for the US market, and a mystery explained! Back to Doc' an article in "Guns and Ammo" surmised that his personal side arm was a cut down 12 bore, pistol grip stock and 12"barrel,hung on a lanyard under his coat, as reputedly carried by Brigham Young's bodyguard, Orrin Porter Rockwell. (Who is well worth a google).

Today, 01:27 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,346	Thank you for responding David!! and especially for the great story!! It is so amazing to share these memories of our youth, and realize how much our number were so much alike before our pursuit of arms became lifelong fascinations. That old shotgun you saw there truly brings the question, 'did Liege' create shotguns FOR the famed Wells Fargo? or had they reached the same kind of renown as the 'Bowie' knife (virtually most in the US were made in Sheffield) and marketed in the UK accordingly? According to what I have found through the years, the 'street howitzer' (as called by Wyatt) used by Doc, was picked up by him at the Wells Fargo office on the way to the shootout. These were typically 12 guage and had shorter barrels than the average, and measured 18-24". As far as I have known, none of these ever had altered stock, nor would have had a lanyard.......this article sounds as if they are suggesting it was Docs personal weapon. He had two revolvers in his coat pockets, the standard manner of carry in town in those days. The strapped 'cowboy' rig holsters were only worn on the range. Even lawmen packed revolvers in reinforced pockets, as did Wyatt. Good note on Orrin Porter Rockwell, Brigham Youngs 'Angel of Death' is indeed worth a look. He was the 'enforcer' and body guard for the famed Mormon prophet. While not sure if he had a shotgun, he did have a most unusually modified Colt revolver with short, sawed off barrel........one of the original 'stub nose' specials.