Some questions about Balinese hilt cup.

Gustav · Yesterday, 04:12 PM

Alan, thank you again!

I am sorry, but I don't believe the "Kekandikan" Wrongko from #6 and Wrongko #11 from my collection are made in Bali or Lombok, and in my opinion they are made in West Java or Pasisir. Why?

Both Gambar have a quite long neck. Such neck is absolutely atypical for a Balinese Gambar.

The front part (the Gandhik side, if Keris would be in Wrongko) is similar to Balinese Kekandikan, but also to older Pasisir forms, - the back part, the "axe", is completely different - it is concave and has an angle, which also is absolutely atypical for a Balinese/Lombok Kekandikan.

Attached pictures of Wrongko from #11 besides a regular Lombok Kekandikan, Gambar from #6 and #11, and a picture of Wrongko from #6 together with other Pasisir Keris from that collection.

Apparently this kind of Wrongko is made in West Java or Pasisir again, attached a recent example, and one, which is recent or refurbished older one.

Gustav · Yesterday, 04:46 PM

Regarding the seldom seen Central Javanese form, I have no difficulties to find another one in van Duuren's book, and yet another one from ACM in Singapore, and I even have not started to comb the bigger databases for related forms.

Why it is seldom seen? I guess, because it most likely was a "special" form (the diamond studded golden Pendoks with green emaille tell about high level Kraton context - the Singapore one is of course different - much simpler Pendok, Madurese hilt, blade actually being a Javanese interpretation of a Balinese Keris), perhaps, like you wrote, at the beginning linked to a certain person - and stopped to be made quite early, most likely already before 1900. I guess every Tukang Wrongko has his own, quite specified repertoire, and if he stops to work and has no follower, that special, rarely encountered form might simply die out. Everything boils down to a few, easily recognizable shapes.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 04:33 AM

Gustav, you have very nicely given a perfect example of something that I believe most of us understand:- it is very difficult, sometimes impossible to provide supportable comment on an object in the absence of adequate information. When complete data concerning an object is not provided we tend to assume that what we can see in a photograph is indicative of what we cannot see in a photograph.

In the case of the wrongkos you have shown it was unknown prior to your post #21 that these wrongkos had a reverse face that differed from & was unknown in Balinese wrongkos. Now we have that information, then we must question whether this kekandikan form was indeed produced in Bali, and I can now agree with you that these wrongkos were probably not produced in Bali.

The longish gambar extension is not unknown in Balinese wrongkos, but it certainly is not common. I have seen & owned a few Balinese wrongkos with a longish gambar extension, I tend to think that most of, if not all the ones I have seen were most probably Bali-Lombok.

So now we have a Balinese form of wrongko that has been made & used somewhere else. You have offered West Jawa & North Coast Jawa as possibilities. That seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis. All we need now is some sort of solid evidence that this kekandikan form was used by Javanese or Sundanese people.

I do not know the norms attached keris wear in Sunda, nor in North coast Jawa, but I do know the norms that are attached now, & in the past, to the wearing of a keris in Central Jawa. If this form of wrongko were to be worn anywhere, who do we think might have worn it, or for what type of wear would it be suited?

When we think about wrongko forms, both in Jawa & in Bali, we need to relate the form to the person who will use it and to the occasion where it can be worn & cannot be worn. It is not just a matter of personal preference. Thus, when we encounter a wrongko form that is not able to be fitted into the rank/occasion matrix, we are left with questions as to just how legitimate that aberrant form may be. On the very few occasions when I have seen a wrongko in use that does not fit the rank/occasion matrix, that wrongko was being worn by a Chinese businessman.

Since the mid-18th century the keris in all of the Island of Jawa has occupied the place of an item of dress, so all forms of keris dress need to be associated with either a particular societal rank, or a particular occasion for wear. Where do we think this particular form of wrongko might be acceptable for wear & by whom?

When you do comb the bigger data bases, if you find that you can provide answers to my questions it would be much appreciated.

One last question. The Singapore keris. Is the Singapore keris the 7 luk blade with kinatah & an ivory hilt & Ngayogya pendok?

If so, why do you think it is a Javanese interpretation of a Balinese form? To me, this keris seems to be classifiable as condong campur, & tangguh PBX. The greneng is a variation, certainly, but a keris of this quality would have been produced to specific order & in such cases the client has the freedom to specify whatever he wants, & the higher up the pecking order, the greater that freedom was & still is.

This raises another question, a couple of these Jawa kekandikan have pendok fitted, those pendoks appear to be Ngyogya pendoks, the hilts also appear to be Ngyogya.Perhaps Ngyogya might be worth a closer look. But then it becomes a bit difficult to relate Ngayogyakarta to Sunda & the North Coast.

In respect of green kemalo (enamel) this does not indicate a high rank, it indicates a middle rank, that of mantri.

Yesterday, 04:12 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	Alan, thank you again! I am sorry, but I don't believe the "Kekandikan" Wrongko from #6 and Wrongko #11 from my collection are made in Bali or Lombok, and in my opinion they are made in West Java or Pasisir. Why? Both Gambar have a quite long neck. Such neck is absolutely atypical for a Balinese Gambar. The front part (the Gandhik side, if Keris would be in Wrongko) is similar to Balinese Kekandikan, but also to older Pasisir forms, - the back part, the "axe", is completely different - it is concave and has an angle, which also is absolutely atypical for a Balinese/Lombok Kekandikan. Attached pictures of Wrongko from #11 besides a regular Lombok Kekandikan, Gambar from #6 and #11, and a picture of Wrongko from #6 together with other Pasisir Keris from that collection. Apparently this kind of Wrongko is made in West Java or Pasisir again, attached a recent example, and one, which is recent or refurbished older one. Attached Images

Yesterday, 04:46 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	Regarding the seldom seen Central Javanese form, I have no difficulties to find another one in van Duuren's book, and yet another one from ACM in Singapore, and I even have not started to comb the bigger databases for related forms. Why it is seldom seen? I guess, because it most likely was a "special" form (the diamond studded golden Pendoks with green emaille tell about high level Kraton context - the Singapore one is of course different - much simpler Pendok, Madurese hilt, blade actually being a Javanese interpretation of a Balinese Keris), perhaps, like you wrote, at the beginning linked to a certain person - and stopped to be made quite early, most likely already before 1900. I guess every Tukang Wrongko has his own, quite specified repertoire, and if he stops to work and has no follower, that special, rarely encountered form might simply die out. Everything boils down to a few, easily recognizable shapes. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; Yesterday at 04:58 PM.

Today, 04:33 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Gustav, you have very nicely given a perfect example of something that I believe most of us understand:- it is very difficult, sometimes impossible to provide supportable comment on an object in the absence of adequate information. When complete data concerning an object is not provided we tend to assume that what we can see in a photograph is indicative of what we cannot see in a photograph. In the case of the wrongkos you have shown it was unknown prior to your post #21 that these wrongkos had a reverse face that differed from & was unknown in Balinese wrongkos. Now we have that information, then we must question whether this kekandikan form was indeed produced in Bali, and I can now agree with you that these wrongkos were probably not produced in Bali. The longish gambar extension is not unknown in Balinese wrongkos, but it certainly is not common. I have seen & owned a few Balinese wrongkos with a longish gambar extension, I tend to think that most of, if not all the ones I have seen were most probably Bali-Lombok. So now we have a Balinese form of wrongko that has been made & used somewhere else. You have offered West Jawa & North Coast Jawa as possibilities. That seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis. All we need now is some sort of solid evidence that this kekandikan form was used by Javanese or Sundanese people. I do not know the norms attached keris wear in Sunda, nor in North coast Jawa, but I do know the norms that are attached now, & in the past, to the wearing of a keris in Central Jawa. If this form of wrongko were to be worn anywhere, who do we think might have worn it, or for what type of wear would it be suited? When we think about wrongko forms, both in Jawa & in Bali, we need to relate the form to the person who will use it and to the occasion where it can be worn & cannot be worn. It is not just a matter of personal preference. Thus, when we encounter a wrongko form that is not able to be fitted into the rank/occasion matrix, we are left with questions as to just how legitimate that aberrant form may be. On the very few occasions when I have seen a wrongko in use that does not fit the rank/occasion matrix, that wrongko was being worn by a Chinese businessman. Since the mid-18th century the keris in all of the Island of Jawa has occupied the place of an item of dress, so all forms of keris dress need to be associated with either a particular societal rank, or a particular occasion for wear. Where do we think this particular form of wrongko might be acceptable for wear & by whom? When you do comb the bigger data bases, if you find that you can provide answers to my questions it would be much appreciated. One last question. The Singapore keris. Is the Singapore keris the 7 luk blade with kinatah & an ivory hilt & Ngayogya pendok? If so, why do you think it is a Javanese interpretation of a Balinese form? To me, this keris seems to be classifiable as condong campur, & tangguh PBX. The greneng is a variation, certainly, but a keris of this quality would have been produced to specific order & in such cases the client has the freedom to specify whatever he wants, & the higher up the pecking order, the greater that freedom was & still is. This raises another question, a couple of these Jawa kekandikan have pendok fitted, those pendoks appear to be Ngyogya pendoks, the hilts also appear to be Ngyogya.Perhaps Ngyogya might be worth a closer look. But then it becomes a bit difficult to relate Ngayogyakarta to Sunda & the North Coast. In respect of green kemalo (enamel) this does not indicate a high rank, it indicates a middle rank, that of mantri.