Revolutionary War era side knife/dagger

Jim McDougall · 17th June 2025, 08:45 PM

Thanks for posting this again Capn!
This is really interesting and clearly the kind of ersatz weapons we have discussed, and most fascinating that most unusual clipped point. This unusual style of rebated point reminds me of some of the 'scymitars' often pictured in the pirate references in old woodcuts, which we have always regarded as artistic license.
It is also mindful of European swords in the cuttoe group, often used as cutlasses or short sabers and resembling some of the 'oriental' styles used by the 'pandour' forces of East Europe mid 18th c. Seifert (1962) in fact shows a similar blade in drawings plate calling it a 'pandour' point.

Considering the diversity of the colonial population it is tempting to think perhaps someone of that heritage might have been inclined to such a blade.

M ELEY · 17th June 2025, 09:15 PM

We have seen piracy spread all over the world, with Berber corsairs from the West African coast, Arabic pirates, East Indian pirates, Indonesian and Phillipino coastal raiders, pirates from the Celebes and Chinese pirates. From any one of these cultures, we see scimitars and parangs and campilions and dao. Many of the mentioned weapons had such clipped tips! Most pirate crews were a mixed bunch anyway, somehow working together despite their ethnic, cultural and sometimes religious differences. It is my opinion, as you stated, that these clipped blades were certainly around, if for nothing more than to intimidate those they threatened with death if they didn't surrender! Of note is the so-called Baltimore or Mayweg cutlasses of the War of 1812 era, with their clipped points. I can imagine a nice pandour saber on the deck of a ship. That would be very intimitating indeed!

Jim McDougall · 17th June 2025, 09:15 PM

On another note toward these kinds of blades, this type clip seems to have been favored for machete type swords, hence perhaps the blades seen in the woodcuts. Pirates were of course typically situated in tropical climes, so cutlasses were as often as not in use ashore used as machetes. The depictions of pirates may have been from the mind of the artist, but with an awareness of these uniquely bladed weapons.

The style continued with the Cuban 'guanabacoa' shown with a reprofiled British M1796 cavalry saber blade. While these typically come from the 19th c. they reflect the propensity to blades for machete type use apparently long extant in these regions.

Another example with perhaps some relevance is the Nathan Starr militia saber of 1812...note the curious cant in the blade posture to the hilt. Also the blade tip has an unusual character. Again, while into 19th c. it would seem that the design features might reflect earlier sword types in use.

While the Revolution was of course situated primarily in New England, there were other theaters of the war that extended southward into the coasts and Caribbean.

Admittedly a lot of speculation, still some suggestions that might account for a fascinating anomaly such as this.

We just crossed posts!!!

M ELEY · 18th June 2025, 09:10 PM

The Nathan Starrs always did have that curious 'cant' to their blades as well. I feel on my canted blade that it started out life as a truly massive horseman's saber, like several canted examples in Nuemann's guide, but was repurposed/clipped and made into a cutlass either during the Rev War or possibly post-1800 for the War of 1812 era. I imagine the cant on a cavalry sword would have helped with the cleaving effect when riding down an enemy. As far as on a cutlass-type blade, it really does aid in the swing, but it is a little cumbersome. Cutlasses weren't made for any 'Errol Flynn' fighting moves!

I remember owning an old 19th c. manual on how to train simple sailors how to fight with them. It was like Step#1- Raise your cutlass! Step#2-Chop the bastard! There were a few defensive blocks and a little footwork, but that was it! A simple heavy killing tool used in tight quarters where there was no fancy footwork and try not to hit your own fellows when swinging!

CutlassCollector · 19th June 2025, 10:00 AM

Nice old knife, it's always surprised me the way files are repurposed for other uses, even today.

I see an old friend there! I love these old cutlasses as well, nothing fancy just unadorned weapon.

Lets not forget the clip point continued into the late 19th century on the Klewang (see swap forum) and into the 20th on the 1917 US Cutlass, which is almost identical.

M ELEY · 20th June 2025, 12:50 AM

Agreed, David. These Dutch klewang were indeed state of the art when it came to cutlasses. Even though they are past my collecting era, I have seriously thought about adding one to my collection someday. I know Wayne was also a big fan of these types-

Triarii · 24th June 2025, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The Nathan Starrs always did have that curious 'cant' to their blades as well. I feel on my canted blade that it started out life as a truly massive horseman's saber, like several canted examples in Nuemann's guide, but was repurposed/clipped and made into a cutlass either during the Rev War or possibly post-1800 for the War of 1812 era. I imagine the cant on a cavalry sword would have helped with the cleaving effect when riding down an enemy. As far as on a cutlass-type blade, it really does aid in the swing, but it is a little cumbersome. Cutlasses weren't made for any 'Errol Flynn' fighting moves!

I remember owning an old 19th c. manual on how to train simple sailors how to fight with them. It was like Step#1- Raise your cutlass! Step#2-Chop the bastard! There were a few defensive blocks and a little footwork, but that was it! A simple heavy killing tool used in tight quarters where there was no fancy footwork and try not to hit your own fellows when swinging!

The canted grip is likely to support aligning the grip to the point, which supports thrusting, though curved blades are less than ideal for that. It's seen on other C18th and early C19th weapons.

M ELEY · 24th June 2025, 06:48 PM

Thank you, Triarii, for your comments. I had seen other swords from the 18th with the cant, but many seem to believe this construction only came about post 1800. Thanks for the verification of 18th c. examples. Geoege Neumann had several such swords in his guide to Rev War swords-

Triarii · 25th June 2025, 04:24 PM

I'll qualify my 'C18th' as late C18th, so not far off your 1800 date. Can I find the pictures of the examples I saw... nope. I recall a canted hilt on a so-called 'flank officers sword' by Read of Dublin, so last part of the C18th ie before the 1803 pattern appears.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2025, 06:49 PM

Then there is this oddball Ive had about 45 years. I had always regarded it as an early variant of the 1796 light cavalry saber (in fact in was included in an article on such variants by Eric Troldhuus of the Danish Arms and Armour Society in the 90s). In some Caucasian sabers such as the skirted shashka, it seemed perhaps some of the ethnic influences such as Tatar from these might have come into play. However that assumption would be pretty tenuous.

What is even more interesting on this is the extremely parabolic shamshir blade with the pipeback blade somewhat popular in early British sabers. In this early period from the time Henry Osborn was developing the regulation British light cavalry saber of 1796, there were considerations of tulwars, shamshirs and other ethnographic forms, so perhaps this might have been some sort of prototype,...so many mysteries!

17th June 2025, 09:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,512	On another note toward these kinds of blades, this type clip seems to have been favored for machete type swords, hence perhaps the blades seen in the woodcuts. Pirates were of course typically situated in tropical climes, so cutlasses were as often as not in use ashore used as machetes. The depictions of pirates may have been from the mind of the artist, but with an awareness of these uniquely bladed weapons. The style continued with the Cuban 'guanabacoa' shown with a reprofiled British M1796 cavalry saber blade. While these typically come from the 19th c. they reflect the propensity to blades for machete type use apparently long extant in these regions. Another example with perhaps some relevance is the Nathan Starr militia saber of 1812...note the curious cant in the blade posture to the hilt. Also the blade tip has an unusual character. Again, while into 19th c. it would seem that the design features might reflect earlier sword types in use. While the Revolution was of course situated primarily in New England, there were other theaters of the war that extended southward into the coasts and Caribbean. Admittedly a lot of speculation, still some suggestions that might account for a fascinating anomaly such as this. We just crossed posts!!! Attached Images

19th June 2025, 10:00 AM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	Nice old knife, it's always surprised me the way files are repurposed for other uses, even today. I see an old friend there! I love these old cutlasses as well, nothing fancy just unadorned weapon. Lets not forget the clip point continued into the late 19th century on the Klewang (see swap forum) and into the 20th on the 1917 US Cutlass, which is almost identical. Attached Images

25th June 2025, 06:49 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,512	Canted hilt Then there is this oddball Ive had about 45 years. I had always regarded it as an early variant of the 1796 light cavalry saber (in fact in was included in an article on such variants by Eric Troldhuus of the Danish Arms and Armour Society in the 90s). In some Caucasian sabers such as the skirted shashka, it seemed perhaps some of the ethnic influences such as Tatar from these might have come into play. However that assumption would be pretty tenuous. What is even more interesting on this is the extremely parabolic shamshir blade with the pipeback blade somewhat popular in early British sabers. In this early period from the time Henry Osborn was developing the regulation British light cavalry saber of 1796, there were considerations of tulwars, shamshirs and other ethnographic forms, so perhaps this might have been some sort of prototype,...so many mysteries! Attached Images

17th June 2025, 08:45 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,512	Thanks for posting this again Capn! This is really interesting and clearly the kind of ersatz weapons we have discussed, and most fascinating that most unusual clipped point. This unusual style of rebated point reminds me of some of the 'scymitars' often pictured in the pirate references in old woodcuts, which we have always regarded as artistic license. It is also mindful of European swords in the cuttoe group, often used as cutlasses or short sabers and resembling some of the 'oriental' styles used by the 'pandour' forces of East Europe mid 18th c. Seifert (1962) in fact shows a similar blade in drawings plate calling it a 'pandour' point. Considering the diversity of the colonial population it is tempting to think perhaps someone of that heritage might have been inclined to such a blade. Attached Images

17th June 2025, 09:15 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	We have seen piracy spread all over the world, with Berber corsairs from the West African coast, Arabic pirates, East Indian pirates, Indonesian and Phillipino coastal raiders, pirates from the Celebes and Chinese pirates. From any one of these cultures, we see scimitars and parangs and campilions and dao. Many of the mentioned weapons had such clipped tips! Most pirate crews were a mixed bunch anyway, somehow working together despite their ethnic, cultural and sometimes religious differences. It is my opinion, as you stated, that these clipped blades were certainly around, if for nothing more than to intimidate those they threatened with death if they didn't surrender! Of note is the so-called Baltimore or Mayweg cutlasses of the War of 1812 era, with their clipped points. I can imagine a nice pandour saber on the deck of a ship. That would be very intimitating indeed!

18th June 2025, 09:10 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	The Nathan Starrs always did have that curious 'cant' to their blades as well. I feel on my canted blade that it started out life as a truly massive horseman's saber, like several canted examples in Nuemann's guide, but was repurposed/clipped and made into a cutlass either during the Rev War or possibly post-1800 for the War of 1812 era. I imagine the cant on a cavalry sword would have helped with the cleaving effect when riding down an enemy. As far as on a cutlass-type blade, it really does aid in the swing, but it is a little cumbersome. Cutlasses weren't made for any 'Errol Flynn' fighting moves! I remember owning an old 19th c. manual on how to train simple sailors how to fight with them. It was like Step#1- Raise your cutlass! Step#2-Chop the bastard! There were a few defensive blocks and a little footwork, but that was it! A simple heavy killing tool used in tight quarters where there was no fancy footwork and try not to hit your own fellows when swinging!

20th June 2025, 12:50 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Agreed, David. These Dutch klewang were indeed state of the art when it came to cutlasses. Even though they are past my collecting era, I have seriously thought about adding one to my collection someday. I know Wayne was also a big fan of these types-

24th June 2025, 06:48 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you, Triarii, for your comments. I had seen other swords from the 18th with the cant, but many seem to believe this construction only came about post 1800. Thanks for the verification of 18th c. examples. Geoege Neumann had several such swords in his guide to Rev War swords-

25th June 2025, 04:24 PM	#9
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 142	I'll qualify my 'C18th' as late C18th, so not far off your 1800 date. Can I find the pictures of the examples I saw... nope. I recall a canted hilt on a so-called 'flank officers sword' by Read of Dublin, so last part of the C18th ie before the 1803 pattern appears.