Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

eftihis · 22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM

First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis.

Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level.

The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones.
I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious.

But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself.
What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin.
Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia.

Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans.
Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty.
Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity.
THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

ariel · 23rd July 2006, 01:47 AM

I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory

" Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" .
I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended.
Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you.
As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli.
Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

Valjhun · 24th July 2006, 06:26 PM

Well said SenSei!

Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis.

As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece....

Zifir · 25th July 2006, 08:05 PM

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758

If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows.

When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance?

eftihis · 26th July 2006, 03:22 PM

Hallo Zifir,
I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century.
If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard.
When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 04:06 PM

Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure

, but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes.

Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west.

Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not?

Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you.
regards

Rick · 26th July 2006, 04:40 PM

The tip of my Yatagan scabbard .
Dragon or Fish ?

24th July 2006, 06:26 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well said SenSei! Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis. As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece.... Last edited by Valjhun; 24th July 2006 at 08:02 PM.

25th July 2006, 08:05 PM	#4
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758 If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows. When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance? Last edited by Zifir; 25th July 2006 at 08:21 PM.

26th July 2006, 04:40 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The tip of my Yatagan scabbard . Dragon or Fish ? Attached Images

22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis. Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level. The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones. I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious. But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself. What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin. Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia. Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans. Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty. Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity. THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

23rd July 2006, 01:47 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory " Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" . I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended. Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you. As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli. Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

26th July 2006, 03:22 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hallo Zifir, I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century. If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard. When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.

26th July 2006, 04:06 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure , but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes. Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west. Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not? Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you. regards