Saif, Moroccan saif, sife, nimcha, nimsha

Pertinax · 12th May 2025, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found this mysterious oval mark with the four appendages in Wallace Coll. (p.274) as found on a German blade c. 1560s-1600 in this case bracketed by these dentated arcs (sickle). It is my impression that this is a lesser known mark likely Italian that ended up being spuriously used much as the sickle, twig etc. were used in Styria and Germany. (attached)

Also added the hussar saber with late 17th c blade (prb. Styrian) from discussion on European forum, and with this curious oval mark.

Bravo Jim! You are, as always, on top, hats off!

Now we already know that the oval sign with four appendages is found on European weapons.

Perhaps one day we will find out who it belonged to.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2025, 10:43 PM

Thank you Yuri

It is always fun to solve (or try) mysteries. It is doubtful anyone has records of these often variously configured markings as to what meaning they might have had. Makers tended to have distinctive trademark punzones which were placed singularly in one universal location on the blade, typically the forte.
It seems that although many blades had no makers marks.....typically well established makers had shops, and often other workers making blades, which presumably were not marked as those of the master.

This was the case with the Ferara brothers (your ANDREA FERARA mkg) of Belluno in the regions of Milan in Italy. They worked in the shop of another master forger, and VERY few blades are marked to the Ferara brothers.
How the name became such a ubiquitous mark of quality is a matter of notable debate, but has become the stuff of legend.

Looking at references with these twig, marca mosca, sickles etc. they occur in weird configurations and multiples on the Italian blades, which further indicates that though not isolated to one maker....it is possible that certain combinations might be so used. There have also always been suggestions of the guilds having something to do with these varied devices.

Rick · 14th May 2025, 05:14 AM

Is a backsword blade in Nimcha dress still called a Nimcha?
All of the Nimchas in this thread have curved blades.

Is it welcome in the Brotherhood?

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2025, 08:36 AM

Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear.
These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability.
The Brotherhood? of course!

Pertinax · 18th May 2025, 06:22 PM

Hi Jim!

I thought you might find it interesting, you can download it for free:
https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co...ie-Nomer-1.pdf

JOURNAL OF THE SOCIETY OF HISTORICAL WEAPONS
HISTORICAL WEAPONS No. 1 2015
EDUARD von LENZ
A FEW WORDS ABOUT ANCIENT COLD WEAPONS
Page 150-151

IV. Italian Masters. "Gurda".
The Italian masters, in contrast to the Solingen and German masters in general, comparatively rarely branded their blades, and if they did, they usually used small marks of a simple form (Fig. 11), which, as far as is known, belonged to the workshops of the cities of Genoa, Brescia, Milan and Belluno and did not constitute the personal property of certain masters.

P.s. If you have any difficulties with the translation, let me know and I will help.

Pertinax · 18th May 2025, 07:11 PM

Italian Masters. "Gurda"

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2025, 06:30 AM

Thank you so much Yuri! I could not open this due to restrictions, but Im familiar with the work of Lenz from ZWHK.
Interesting note on the term 'gurda' which I am familiar with as the term for the 'Genoan' sickle marks copied on Chechen sword blades in the Caucusus.
These and other markings were copied on these blades, likely from Genoan trade ports in the Black Sea.

The subject of markings as applied by distinct makers in Italy is daunting as there was a great deal of spurious use by others, and the variations of some of the more ubiquitous Italian marks seem to be used in unusual configurations and pairings. The marca mosca, and 'pi' marks seen in the plate you show do not appear to belong to a particular maker.

Genoa was primarily a port of export, and the so called 'sickle' marks, though used by various blade making locations in North Italy, again sometimes in unusual variation, became deemed 'Genoan' as that was where they came from. These and many of the other markings noted became copied on blades in Germany and Styria, as well as other locations, and often it is hard to determine a blades origin by focus on markings.

Often makers worked in the shops of other makers, such as the noted Ferrara brothers, who though working in the forge of a maker in Belluno, with the name of Andrea Ferrara becoming legendary. The consternation regarding this is well known, but as far as known, no blades by him and marked as such are known (obviously there have been some suggested).

Another conundrum are the blades of CAINO. Again widely copied, it is unclear if by two makers named Caino (separate locations) or perhaps the city of Caino (near Milan) . Blades have the name Caino and various marks (M over an S, or over a mark).....but most distinctively typically have strange groupings of letters, often sequenced, that seem to be acrostics or some coded letter combinations.

These are a few of the mysterious markings, names etc. that turn up on blades that have entered the trade networks which have supplied many cultural spheres, and have circulated for generations if not even centuries.

This is what makes these ethnographic weapons so fascinating, and thank you for keeping this thread so interesting.

14th May 2025, 05:14 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Do Clothes Make the Man? Is a backsword blade in Nimcha dress still called a Nimcha? All of the Nimchas in this thread have curved blades. Is it welcome in the Brotherhood? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 14th May 2025 at 05:29 AM.

18th May 2025, 07:11 PM	#6
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 300	Italian Masters. "Gurda" Attached Images

12th May 2025, 10:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,680	Thank you Yuri It is always fun to solve (or try) mysteries. It is doubtful anyone has records of these often variously configured markings as to what meaning they might have had. Makers tended to have distinctive trademark punzones which were placed singularly in one universal location on the blade, typically the forte. It seems that although many blades had no makers marks.....typically well established makers had shops, and often other workers making blades, which presumably were not marked as those of the master. This was the case with the Ferara brothers (your ANDREA FERARA mkg) of Belluno in the regions of Milan in Italy. They worked in the shop of another master forger, and VERY few blades are marked to the Ferara brothers. How the name became such a ubiquitous mark of quality is a matter of notable debate, but has become the stuff of legend. Looking at references with these twig, marca mosca, sickles etc. they occur in weird configurations and multiples on the Italian blades, which further indicates that though not isolated to one maker....it is possible that certain combinations might be so used. There have also always been suggestions of the guilds having something to do with these varied devices.

14th May 2025, 08:36 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,680	Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear. These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability. The Brotherhood? of course!

20th May 2025, 06:30 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,680	Thank you so much Yuri! I could not open this due to restrictions, but Im familiar with the work of Lenz from ZWHK. Interesting note on the term 'gurda' which I am familiar with as the term for the 'Genoan' sickle marks copied on Chechen sword blades in the Caucusus. These and other markings were copied on these blades, likely from Genoan trade ports in the Black Sea. The subject of markings as applied by distinct makers in Italy is daunting as there was a great deal of spurious use by others, and the variations of some of the more ubiquitous Italian marks seem to be used in unusual configurations and pairings. The marca mosca, and 'pi' marks seen in the plate you show do not appear to belong to a particular maker. Genoa was primarily a port of export, and the so called 'sickle' marks, though used by various blade making locations in North Italy, again sometimes in unusual variation, became deemed 'Genoan' as that was where they came from. These and many of the other markings noted became copied on blades in Germany and Styria, as well as other locations, and often it is hard to determine a blades origin by focus on markings. Often makers worked in the shops of other makers, such as the noted Ferrara brothers, who though working in the forge of a maker in Belluno, with the name of Andrea Ferrara becoming legendary. The consternation regarding this is well known, but as far as known, no blades by him and marked as such are known (obviously there have been some suggested). Another conundrum are the blades of CAINO. Again widely copied, it is unclear if by two makers named Caino (separate locations) or perhaps the city of Caino (near Milan) . Blades have the name Caino and various marks (M over an S, or over a mark).....but most distinctively typically have strange groupings of letters, often sequenced, that seem to be acrostics or some coded letter combinations. These are a few of the mysterious markings, names etc. that turn up on blades that have entered the trade networks which have supplied many cultural spheres, and have circulated for generations if not even centuries. This is what makes these ethnographic weapons so fascinating, and thank you for keeping this thread so interesting.