Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

erlikhan · 20th July 2006, 10:05 PM

hi. I am almost sure the scabbard mountings are new,and have been remounted to this scabbard although they dont properly fit, as somebody has preferred to do so instead of leaving it empty. You can see it from the metal sew and the place of the original mountings. Plus -I think- the grip band is new too,which reminds me very much the style of somebody I know from Istanbul...

regards

S.Al-Anizi · 21st July 2006, 04:11 AM

Valjhun, the writing could also be Osmanli, or even Persian? (more likely than afghan

)

Valjhun · 21st July 2006, 10:01 AM

Erli, thoose fittings doesn't seem to be new, just poorly made greek work in the passage of time between 1880-1920 and they fit properly to the piece, only the upper "silver" part is loose, but it goews down to the leather border.

Zifir · 21st July 2006, 02:21 PM

The writing is not Ottoman Turkish. I don't think it's persian either. Perhaps someone squenced arabic letters one after another, or it's urdu or another langauge.

eftihis · 21st July 2006, 04:42 PM

Hi Matej,
I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

Valjhun · 21st July 2006, 05:42 PM

Well Eftihis,

I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that?

However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work?

eftihis · 22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM

First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis.

Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level.

The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones.
I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious.

But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself.
What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin.
Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia.

Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans.
Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty.
Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity.
THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

21st July 2006, 05:42 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well Eftihis, I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that? However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work? Last edited by Valjhun; 21st July 2006 at 06:29 PM.

20th July 2006, 10:05 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi. I am almost sure the scabbard mountings are new,and have been remounted to this scabbard although they dont properly fit, as somebody has preferred to do so instead of leaving it empty. You can see it from the metal sew and the place of the original mountings. Plus -I think- the grip band is new too,which reminds me very much the style of somebody I know from Istanbul... regards

21st July 2006, 04:11 AM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Valjhun, the writing could also be Osmanli, or even Persian? (more likely than afghan )

21st July 2006, 10:01 AM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Erli, thoose fittings doesn't seem to be new, just poorly made greek work in the passage of time between 1880-1920 and they fit properly to the piece, only the upper "silver" part is loose, but it goews down to the leather border.

21st July 2006, 02:21 PM	#4
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	The writing is not Ottoman Turkish. I don't think it's persian either. Perhaps someone squenced arabic letters one after another, or it's urdu or another langauge.

21st July 2006, 04:42 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hi Matej, I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

22nd July 2006, 11:23 PM	#7
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis. Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level. The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones. I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious. But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself. What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin. Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia. Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans. Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty. Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity. THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.