Moroccan dagger??

[roanoa]

Picked up this at a show. Not my field, but I could not pass.... I found a similar one on internet (sold a while back by Ashoka Arts) identified a Moroccan. Help???? The back is partially grooved. It has a strange (?) proof mark. Any thoughts. Thanks.

[TVV]

Yes, it is from Morocco and it is known among collectors as "genoui". Nice dagger, congratulations,

Teodor

[RobT]

Hi All,

The device at the base of the blade looks like a decoration commonly found on Algerian khodmi (see photos). The symbol also appears to be partially hidden by the bolster which may mean that the blade is not original to the hilt. This suspicion is heightened by the fact that both fullers also run under the bolster. An Algerian blade re-hilted in Morocco perhaps?

Sincerely,
RobT

[sabertasche]

VERY nice addition!

G

[roanoa]

Hi, Sabertache. I live in Coquitlam. Picked this up at the Chilliwack show on Sunday... Cheers.

[Duccio]

Hello Roano, your new knife comes from Algeria and is called "Bou Saadi" from the name of a city where it is produced, or Khodmi; it was used by the shepherds of the Kabilya tribes to slaughter the sheep... The handle can be made of wood, or bone or horn, as I think yours is.
See you soon!
Duccio

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by TVV

Yes, it is from Morocco and it is known among collectors as "genoui". Nice dagger, congratulations,

Teodor

Hi Teodor,
I was under the impression that Genoui were usually double edged. The subject item is single edged.
Stu

[TVV]

Eric Claude in his book on swords and daggers from Morocco and Algeria has shown multiple examples of these Moroccan daggers, and he describes them as genoui. Buttin from what I recall prefers to describe them as sboula.

The confusion with Algerian khodmi daggers is understandable and these knives may well have a common ancestor, such as the stiletto, but the decoration, the shape of the hilt, the blades etc are all different.

[RobT]

Duccio,

While the symbol at the base of the blade appears to be something commonly seen on Algerian khodmi, both the blade and hilt of roanoa's knife appear to be atypical for a khodmi. On all of the khodmi blades I have seen, the bolster is integral with the blade and the blades are asymmetrically ground. Likewise, none of the eight blades in my modest collection have a ricasso/sharpening stop, nor can I remember seeing this feature on any khodmi. Finally, I can't recall ever having seen a fuller on the stereotypical khodmi blade type. As for the hilts, those on the stereotypical khodmi type are usually kerfed to accept the tang and the blade is held to the hilt with a ferrule made of wrapped wire. I have never seen a ferrule like the one on roanoa's hilt on a khodmi. Nor have I ever seen a khodmi with a butt cap.

TVV,
Correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that the genoui was a straight bladed version of the koummya.

kahnjar1,
I do have a genoui in koummya dress that has a single edge blade.


Sincerely,
RobT

[roanoa]

Sorry, guys, my bad... I missed posting one photo, an important one. So here it is showing the blade, which is 11 1/4" long and 1' wide at the ricasso. Double edge is 6 1/4". Cheers.

[Sajen]

I am not sure if it is Moroccan or Algerian. I hope our new member fennec chime in and will be able to tell us more.
I've learned that the shown daggers are all Algerian and called khodmi while the small ones with wrapped wire are called mousse. The Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lgerian&page=2 #39

Regards,
Detlef

[TVV]

Here are a couple of pages from Claude's book, where he is using genoui to refer to this specific type of dagger:



There is indeed a version with a koummaya style hilt and straight blade, and Claude refers to shorter (under 40cm in length) examples as genoui, while longer ones he calls sboula.

[fennec]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am not sure if it is Moroccan or Algerian. I hope our new member fennec chime in and will be able to tell us more.
I've learned that the shown daggers are all Algerian and called khodmi while the small ones with wrapped wire are called mousse. The Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lgerian&page=2 #39

Regards,
Detlef

Hi my friend, and sorry for a so long silence... lot of personal changement, and a book about algerian weapons that I struggle to finish, but soon I hope, "Inshallah"

For the dagger, it is clearly MOROCCAN for me ! Lot of point we dont do in algeria, and even if this knive origin is now obvious, I will give some.

- for exemple that full tang on a dagger, very rare, we prefer a half one, hold by two pins generally, and not hammered in the pommel.
- Another typical "not algerian" point is that bolster running in the beginning of the blade, and a part of the handle, and decorated. The only kind of those things you can see on algerian weapons, are those inspired by ottomans ones (like for exemple those "bishaq knives", made in Kabylie by the Iflissen), but dont look like the moroccan one. Not "staight cut", not othogonal to the spine (except on touareg ones, telek, gozma, etc), but making like a triangle, more ottoman, for algerian kinds.
- Then the handle, typical shape for a morrocan jenoui, not an algerian style.
- And finally, the blade. If the fuller can reminds the algerian khodmi (like the fullers), some others are typically morrocan. No ricasso for algerian daggers, the cutting edge is all along the blade.
For the "sahraoui mouss" (desert knife) shown by Detlef, inspired by the work of bousaada, but that we can find in a much larger area of algerian sahara (even seen some very old models took from tourags), the spine is generally always straight. The genoui gives that drop point blade.
- the maker mark, is actually a bit more complicated... marks on north african swords are very close, for a lot of reasons... shared skills, and common history/culture/religion, even sometimes ethnicity, lot of travel between those territories before the reconquista, and after, etc etc.. and also, the MATERIAL !! analysing the algerian marks, you will notice that the same kinds of tools are usually used to apply them. They are simply "turn", of added to some other to create a new shape, but not complex, and personnal ones. They do not actually mark the maker, but symbolize a "spirit" of the tool, an area of making, a "style of weapon". Of course, a blacksmith (or family of) will generally always apply the same one. But it is common, for Bousaadi Khodmi for exemple, to find same marks, on knives made by different smiths, at different era, and even sometimes, areas (we say "Bousaada", but thats also refer to a style of knives, that was actually made/copied/findable or probably traded in lots of parts of algeria, by the searches I've made recently). SO, for this moroccan one, first of all, I think that the upper part is covered by the bolster, that will give a shape that you can not find (or probably rarely, never seen personnaly) on a bousaadi, a kind of cercle, with two crescent, one up, one down. You can notice that bousaadi ones only have one.

Well, I hope those details will help for some next identification, and sorry by advance if I'm a bit long to answer

[Sajen]

Hi Kahled my friend,

Just noticed that you replied to this thread, thank you very much for your elaborately comment!

Will write you an email in the next few days!

Best regards,
Detlef