Thick knife frome Bali/Lombok

[Athanase]

Hello,

I have this thick knife from Bali/Lombok but I don't know its exact origin or its function.

Is it a ceremonial knife, like the Tiuk Pengentas, used in funeral ceremonies?
or is it just a nicely decorated utility knife?

When do you think it dates from?

[Sajen]

Hello Séverin,

Nice knife! I guess a Balinese origin but I am unsure. Utility?

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I agree with Detlef - Bali. I think it is ceremonial but for what I don't know.

[milandro]

is this old? Looks pretty " fresh" to me (especially the engraving) and the cold shuts aren't particularly nice

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

is this old? Looks pretty " fresh" to me (especially the engraving) and the cold shuts aren't particularly nice

Looks to my eyes like it has a good age, an utility blade doesn't need a good surface finish, I could show several really old blades with a rough surface finish.
The engravings seem to have remnants of polish paste inside, at least it looks like this.

Regards,
Detlef

[milandro]

that engraving looks awfully crisp

[Ian]

The engraving seems to have included some inlay work, most of which is now missing. That would suggest some age for the blade and a likely ceremonial piece.

[RobT]

Hi All,

The hilt/ferrule arrangement looks similar to a knife of mine which I had always thought was some form of Indonesian wedong. The ferrule is silver plated steel. The blade is about 7.625 in (19.3675 cm).

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

The hilt/ferrule arrangement looks similar to a knife of mine which I had always thought was some form of Indonesian wedong. The ferrule is silver plated steel. The blade is about 7.625 in (19.3675 cm).

Hello Rob,

I've seen several knives, "bolos", working knives from Bali/Lombok, some we have discussed before here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=wedung+bali
But I am not convinced that we can name them all with a special term, I'll try to research in future on this matter. See for example my one in the first picture.

There is no "some" form of a Javanese wedong/wedung, a wedung is a ceremonial court knife and follows a given pattern, see sec. pic. attached.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Other wedung, all taken from this site from other members, I'll hope they don't mind. You can see that they differ but follow a given pattern in general.

[Athanase]

Thank you all for your answers.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Thank you all for your answers.

Hello Séverin,

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Best regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Looks like silver to me.

[Ian]

That was my thought too, Jose. It looks as though there is quite a lot missing from the rest of the engraved area.

[RobT]

Sajen,

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Hello Rob,

Thank you for clarification! For me is a wedung a special knife from Java. It could be that wedung and tiuk pegentas have a similar source and have a similar blade shape but they are different knives with different purpose as well.

Best regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by RobT

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Hi Rob. I completely agree with Detlef here. We just need to stop calling Balinese pengentas tiuk a "Balinese wedhung". It's not a matter of whether "some do and some don't". It is simply indorrect, regardless of what Antiques by the Sea or a wikipedia page calls them. The bottom line is that there just is incorrect information floating about out there and as annoying as it might become regarding these particular knives i am afraid that i will step up and say the same thing every time someone calls a Balinese pengentas tiuk a "Balinese wedhung". LOL!
Yes, both Balinese pengentas tiuk and Javanese wedhung serve ceremonial purposes, but they are not at all related. The wedhung is solely for wear in the court of Javanese keratons. It symbolizes the wearers obligation and promise to "cut a path" for their Sultan. Though mostly symbolic, the wedhung might indeed be put to practical uses at the bidding of Sultan for small tasks around the keraton. The keraton is really the only place that the wedhung is worn.
Balinese pengentas tiuk, as i think you already point out, serve a ritual funerary function. During a cremation, a priest uses the tiuk pengentas to cut the deceased's cloth cord from their body. This symbolizes cutting the person off from earthly life.
That said, to me your knife most resembles a Balinese temple golok. These knives are used by priests (Brahmin) for the preparation of temple offerrings. Compare yours with one from my collection. Mine is a fairly large and heavy blade, weighing in at 900g (2 lbs). It is also razor sharp.

[Sajen]

Hello David,

Very nice hilt on your knife!

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

Very nice hilt on your knife!

Isn't it though.
But the blade is even more remarkable to me. It is hard to get a good grasp of the size and weight of this beast from my photos. And supper sharp. You could probably easily chop a small tree down with it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Isn't though.
But the blade is even more remarkable to me. It is hard to get a good grasp of the size and weight of this beast from my photos. And supper sharp. You could probably easily chop a small tree down with it.

Hi David,

I can imagine! You're like usual good pictures, let's suggest like this!

Regards,
Detlef

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Séverin,

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello,

In the engraving there is copper wire embedded but a lot of it is missing.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Hello,

In the engraving there is copper wire embedded but a lot of it is missing.

Thank you Séverin!

[A. G. Maisey]

I would have liked to comment in this thread a while back, but I've been a bit busy & have not had time.

With the naming of all things in Malay societies it is probably never a good idea to fix upon just one name for something, & this applies to just about everything, including sharp pointy things.

There are multiple reasons for this, but the most usual ones are local usage, language differences tied to location, use to which the object is put, & language differences tied to hierarchical position of the speaker/writer or the listener/reader.

With that in mind I will comment upon the big Bali knife & the word "wedung".

The big Bali knife is perhaps best described as a "perupak", but I think most Balinese people would simply call it a "tiuk", ie, a "knife", or maybe a "tiuk gedhe", a "big knife", perhaps even a "golok" ("golok" does exist in Balinese).

The word "wedung" (wedhun- a dot over the 'n' indicates the 'n' pronounced as 'ng') occurs in Old Javanese where Zoetmulder gives the meaning of : "a type of wide axe (with a wooden cover)".

In Modern Javanese the word "wedhung" is ngoko, ie, lower level Javanese, in Krama Inggil the word "pasikon" is used, & the meaning is a "cleaver-like knife worn with court dress" or "a sharp pointed knife with a somewhat curved blade worn by aristocrats", the second definition is the more academically correct.

In Bahasa Indonesia the word "wedung" means "cleaver".

The above are all dictionary definitions, but on the street, in real life the knife worn by some nobles in the Surakarta & Jogjakarta kratons is named as either pasikon or wedhung, depending upon the required level of language used.

As far as I can determine, the word "wedung" in whatever spelling does not occur in Sundanese, Balinese or Malay.

The wedung has varying forms, and historically appears to have been worn by nobles in courts other than the Central Javanese courts. My understanding of the usage of this word in Jawa is that a wedung really only becomes a wedhung (ng) or pasikon(KI) when it is fitted with a wooden scabbard and worn by, or suited to be worn by, an aristocrat.

[Ian]

Hello Alan,

Thanks for that erudite explanation and for reminding us of the intricacies of the Indonesian languages. Your explanations of the subtle use of words among Indonesian culture helps make sense of an otherwise opaque topic. Too often we descend into the "name game" in ignorance of these distinctions.

Regards, Ian.

[A. G. Maisey]

There is one other little thing that deserves a mention Ian, it is well known within the communities that study these societies professionally, but seems to be mostly unknown amongst those of us who study only certain aspects of these societies, & that as mostly a hobby occupation.

In Javanese society in particular, & in other Malay societies to perhaps a lesser extent, the answer to a question, or information given in general, will be what the giver of information either believes the recipient of information wishes to hear, or will be what he believes will please the recipient of information. Accuracy & truth are very much a secondary consideration.

This tendency was very much in presence during colonial times, & it makes reliance upon old sources of information doubtful, to the point where any info taken from an old source needs to be checked & cross checked before it can be accepted as being possibly accurate, & then only accurate for a given time & place.

We need to keep an open mind & to be quite flexible when dealing with what might be or what might not be correct.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The big Bali knife is perhaps best described as a "perupak", but I think most Balinese people would simply call it a "tiuk", ie, a "knife", or maybe a "tiuk gedhe", a "big knife", perhaps even a "golok" ("golok" does exist in Balinese).

Hi Alan. I've been calling the knife i posted a "Balinese Golok" since that was how you described it when i acquired it from you. My question is, how is size an issue when applying these names? As you may recall, my example is rather massive, even though i don't believe my photos really show that very well without a reference point for scale. When i look back at Athanase's photos i believe the impression they left on me was that his knife was much larger than it actually is. But now that i am paying attention to the tape measure (with i assume is in cm) it appears Athanase's knife is only about 19cm. At first i thought it looked much larger. Mine in almost 30cm in length and 8cm in width. So i might have been more likely to call his knife "tiuk" given the size difference. But would that be valid reasoning when naming the knife?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give an answer to this question, at least, not one that I can defend.

Firstly, with things Balinese I'm very much a learner, this is to say that I know more now than I did 20 years ago, vastly more than I did 50 years ago, & less than I would expect to know this time next year.

Secondly, until very recently Bali was a number of different little kingdoms separated by deep valleys, high hills, & jungle. These little kingdoms were in a state of more or less constant warfare with constant changes in alliances, this means that when we think of old Bali we really should think of it as a collection of separate locations where people spoke mutually intelligible dialects of the same language, and the way in which each of those dialects was used varied across time & place & with each person.

I think the same thing is true of most languages, if we consider the English language there is a multitude of dialects & accents that can make our own language pretty incomprehensible to other native speakers of English.

I'm thinking right now of a particular gentleman who lived in California.

Way, way back when I used to send out hardcopy catalogues, he would take his copy from his letter box & immediately ring me and ask me to stay on the line until he got to the house, then his wife would deal with me, he was not able to understand me, she could, but with a little bit of difficulty.That was an accent problem.

But again with English. I habitually carry a pocket knife. Many of my friends carry one too. Some of my friends call their pocket knife a folder, some call it a jack knife, a very few might give that pocket knife its technically correct name, like "barlow knife", or "stock knife", or "pen knife" or whatever. I don't know why, maybe it was usage in their own families, or in the location where they grew up.

In respect of Balinese usage, I feel that usage there is similar to patterns of usage in English. From my own experience I find that just about everybody calls any sort of knife a tiuk, if pressed they might be able to give an alternative name, but the first word is tiuk, if they are using BI, then the first word mostly becomes pisau, but sometimes not, because --- as with Jawa --- ordinary people in Bali mix Balinese with Indonesian in everyday usage, & call that mixture "Bahasa Indonesia".

So --- golok? Yeah, why not? And equally, perupak? Why not?

Since we are using English, I personally think that our English word knife might be just as good. If the people in the society that generated this implement are free to give it varying names, then when we are referring to the same implement, we should be free to use our own name for it. The most important thing is that we understand one another.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In Javanese society in particular, & in other Malay societies to perhaps a lesser extent, the answer to a question, or information given in general, will be what the giver of information either believes the recipient of information wishes to hear, or will be what he believes will please the recipient of information. Accuracy & truth are very much a secondary consideration.

This tendency was very much in presence during colonial times, & it makes reliance upon old sources of information doubtful, to the point where any info taken from an old source needs to be checked & cross checked before it can be accepted as being possibly accurate, & then only accurate for a given time & place.

We need to keep an open mind & to be quite flexible when dealing with what might be or what might not be correct.

How very true Alan. I have experienced this in several SE Asian countries. The desire to satisfy the thinking of foreigners, and not to contradict, is omnipresent.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not just foreigners Ian.

Javanese, Balinese, & SE Asian societies in general are very hierarchically structured societies, how one speaks & is spoken to is very largely dependent upon the hierarchical position of each party to an exchange, not necessarily objectively, but in accord with perception, thus, if the speaker holds the listener to be in a hierarchically higher position than himself, he will respond in conversation in a manner that he believes will please the listener (or reader).

In Jawa & Bali this applies even in the extended family context, but often not in the nuclear family context:- sometimes a wife will give her husband the sharp edge of her tongue, although culturally, especially in Bali, the wife has little value & is expected to accept whatever life may hold for her.

In Colonial times Balinese ladies as wives were held in high regard by both European & Chinese men, one major reason being that Balinese ladies had no problems with handling pork, a trait that did not extend to Javanese ladies.

In Colonial times the Europeans usually held the upper hand in relationships with indigenous peoples, so these indigenous people, sometimes even to the level of indigenous rulers, would unfailingly do their best to give information to the outsiders that they believed was expected or would be pleasing to them.

When I was living for months at a time in Palur, a small town a few kilometers out of Solo, my housekeeper was a village lady whose mother had been a court dancer who was a silir of Sinuhun (PBXII), so her grandfather was the Susuhunan of Surakarta.

My housekeeper herself was the second wife of a public servant & she was married at 17 to produce children for her husband & his first wife, the first wife was unable to produce children.

My housekeeper was totally illiterate, but she did speak very correct & beautiful Javanese.

When she began to work for me she would automatically drop to her haunches and duck-walk past me if I was sitting, she had been brought up to never have her head higher than somebody who was hierarchically above her. She would serve my meals to me from a crouched position.

This was something I found to be annoying, but it took me a couple of years to break her of this behaviour. However, this was a two edged sword, because after she finally stopped treating me as if I was God Come to Earth, she then began to treat me as an equal & not to hold back on honest answers, which was useful, but not always particularly pleasant.

With Javanese people I believe it is very wise to question & analyze all personal interaction. One can take nothing at all for granted, however a feeling of warm but arms length politeness must be maintained at all times.

All this side story comes back to the idea of beliefs & naming associated with societal & cultural matters. We must not believe everything that we encounter, we must subject all supposed knowledge to questioning & analysis.