what kind of rapier are we taling 'bout..?

[gp]

one of my most popular song was by Thin Lizzy, a band from Baile Átha Cliath in the 70ies and during my travels in the late 70ies in the far south-west of Ireland, County Kerry song by the local lads and I during many a pint of the local black brew..☺

the song is titled "Whiskey in the Jar" ;

This is one of the best known Irish folk songs, and it dates to the 17th century. It’s a story of a highwayman (a bandit) and his not so faithful lover. The song came to colonial America and became popular as a way of disrespecting British officials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WDSY8Kaf6o

Also known by the version of the Dubliners
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L__TrWhq4Uk

but I always keep wondering about which rapier they all are singing...
Any of you help this poor Cloggy gettin'out of his confussion ever since I tasted a double Paddy with each pint of Guinnes conform the instructions of the lads in Co. Kerry....

Looking forward to your reply and hopefully picture of that rapier.
Thank you very much or as they say over there "Go raibh maith agat"

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by gp

what kind of rapier are we taling 'bout..?

A long and pointy one.....

Thanks for the links, I think I enjoyed the version from the Dubliners more. The difference between them highlights the issues with using material such as this as a prime source.

Another example is early 20th Century Poem by Alfred Noyes on the same topic. Also set to music by Loreena McKennitt

Here the highway man is also armed with a pistol and a rapier, but scene is set in the middle to late 18th Century with King George and his Red Coats. A time after the rapier had fallen out of fashion and realistically the sword would have been either a basket hilt backsword, a broadsword, hanger or possibly a smallsword. So it would be better to say that 'rapier' should be synomous with sword.

Which circles back to 'Whiskey in the Jar'. A lot depends on when the song is set. Rapiers fell out of favour during the 17th Century, replaced by smallswords coming out of France. However during this time, the term rapier and smallsword were interchangeable so it could have been either.

It should also be noted that both weapons were, generally speaking, items of status. To be able to use a rapier or smallsword well one needed to train with it. Something only afforded by the wealthy or elite. So where did he come by his sword (and pistol for that matter). Was he a gentleman fallen on hard times? A deserter perhaps? Did he steal them?

The other issue is that there is no one specific type of rapier it could be. Mass production was still in it's infancy and while we are seeing the beginings of military standards they were far from universal. Add in that rapiers and smallswords were typically civilian or personal purchase weapons, there's a lot of variation out there.

We can look at types of hilts and say that they are "in the German style" or "English style" but even then it's not helpful as there are multiple paths to how our highway man aquired his sword. Did he fight in the English civil war? Then it is more likely he had a basket hilt or a mortuary sword. Maybe he's a veteran of the 30-Years war over in the Holy Roman Empire, then he could have aquired a swept hilt sword or a Pappenheimer hilted one. Maybe he purchased it, so it could have been an English style sword.

Some examples of the types of swords mentioned:
Two English dish hilted rapiers:













English Mortuary sword:





German Pappenheimer:





17th Century Swept Hilt:

[Triarii]

I remember that second English rapier coming up for auction. I was walking to a hotel and got my timings wrong to bid on it...

[gp]

Originally Posted by Triarii

I remember that second English rapier coming up for auction. I was walking to a hotel and got my timings wrong to bid on it...

sad to hear, as they are beautiful ones

but....
there might be comfort in singing

Mush-a ring dum-a do dum-a da
Whack fol my daddy-o
Whack fol my daddy-o
There's whiskey in the jar


Sláinte!