Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

[Jim McDougall]

In 2015, Barry Clifford who had been diving in the harbor in the Isle of St. Marie in Madagascar since 2000, by 2013 claimed he had found several wrecks associated with pirates.
While it seems the 'Fiery Dragon' of William Conden has been authenticated as well as the wreck of the Great Mahomet, the true search was for Captain Kidds ship the ADVENTURE GALLEY.

Most accounts claim that this ship though built in 1695, was literally a leaking wreck by 1698, and said to have been scuttled in 1698 in or around the harbor in St. Marie.

In 2015, allegedly found in the remains of a vessel and ballast mounds, a notably large INGOT was found, and with markings that suggested those found on ingots of precious metal, in this case silver.
The ingot was large and heavy (110 lbs) and without testing etc. Clifford announced this was PROOF he had found Kidd's Adventure Galley.

Within months UNESCO who had taken the ingot for analysis, noted it was over 95% lead, and probably a large ballast 'pig' . The debris assumed to be of a ship, was probably pilings and material from a dock situated in a location where ships were careened.

There are countless media reports throughout 2015 heralding this most important pirate find, both pro and con toward the curious ingot.
After that NOTHING!
There is not a single note in any medium or venue I can find so far that says what became of this mysterious bar.

While the ingot does seem like various types of lead ballast products, which were apparently largely produced in England.......WHY the markings, which seem to concur with the control and assay markings on Spanish treasure bars. WHAT WOULD THESE BE DOING ON LEAD BALLAST BARS?

Despite all the hyperbole creating the quintessant pirate treasure hunt since virtually the day Kidd was hung in 1701......there has never been any evidence he ever buried any great treasure (beyond the small sum found just after his death).

So AFTER the year of hyperbole on this supposed silver bar announced as Kidds treasure in 2015......WHAT BECAME OF IT?
Was any further investigation or discussion ever done?
No follow up on the archaeological activity in Madagascar since 2015?

Any info, insights, suggestions?

The first bar is the Clifford example....
Next a Spanish bar with noted marks of controller, assay bite, marks date

[drac2k]

Very fascinating information Jim. I know nothing about the subject, however let me throw out a couple of goofy thoughts.
Could the lead bars have actually been part of a Spanish treasurer and some dishonest court official substituted lead bars for silver ones to cover up a theft; mixing in a few here and there?
Also have the bars ever been x-rayed?

[CutlassCollector]

Yes, very interesting Jim, took me on a wee google tour. Mostly ballast seemed to be rock or pig iron in those days.

It has occurred to me that perhaps the lead was cargo not ballast. Lead had a lot of valuable uses in those days - pipes for plumbing, water tanks and kitchen pots, roofing joints and not to mention ammunition.
It is probably too big to be the ship's musket ball supply!

Perhaps the marks are the maker's name and confirming the 95% lead content.

Probably too early for radiation shielding!

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys! Great thoughts and perspective! uh, CC, r
radiation shielding? LOL!!! good one.

Very good points on the uses of lead, one of the key uses obviously in these contexts was ammunition. In most studies of arms I have probed looking for records of arms shipments etc. one of the key commodities was saltpetre for powder.

On that note, mentioning the 'cutting' of commodities by unscrupulous officials was a very real issue. In the Spanish colonies in the 18th-19th c. the use of charcoal on powder was often used for financial gain by these guys, which became so notorious that Mexican powder was regarded nearly useless.

It is a good idea that perhaps this relatively huge ingot was scribed with marks to pose as silver, and IMO very logical thought given these kinds of ploys. The big question is, Kidd is not widely known for the plunder of Spanish ships. However there is an obscure reference of him taking one vessel out of Lima for Spain, and there may have been silver but no detailed references I am aware of.
Other than that, it seems possible that OTHER pirates in this haven in Madagascar might have acquired this sort of 'treasure' (or would be 'silver').
Perhaps even such ingots might have served as decoys on these vessels to detract from actual silver cache?

While I know that lead ballast was indeed produced in ingots, as noted pig iron or stone was more commonly used. There was apparently a notable production of lead ingots for ballast in England often used on Dutch ships as well.
The use of ballast outward voyage, and disposed of in ports of call in place of key cargo seems logical. The lead, as noted, might serve as a usable commodity in these colonial destinations for purposes described.

The DILEMMA here is :
Why has there been no follow up on the disposition of this curious ingot after its 2015 discovery?
Even if not silver, and not definitive proof of finding Kidds "Adventure Galley" (which is still listed as unlocated) it is still a historic artifact.

UNESCO pretty much blasted Clifford for premature announcement and claims to finding Kidd;s ship and ever elusive 'treasure'....with what they showed AFTER testing (which Clifford did not do) was simply lead.
Was this just too embarassing to continue, ? was any further search done in the site?
UNESCO says there was no ship wreckage, only what appears to be pylons or other debris from what may have been a careening dock or structure.

SO WHERE IS THIS BAR NOW? Was it ever tested further? any other items with it? only ONE bar?

I really appreciate you guys answering, and for good ideas. I feel sort of at an impasse here so its good to have your support.

[Bob A]

Fraudulent marking was the first thought that came to my mind as well.

As for UNESCO, their summary dismissal of the "ship" as debris is undercut by the fact of the bar and its description.

While I hesitate to ascribe ulterior, even nefarious, motives generally, when stakes are high, character tends to slip a bit.

[Rick]

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.
If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

[Jim McDougall]

Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford.
Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas.

I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts.

The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat.

The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer).

It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols.
One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols.

What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that.

Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out
I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here.
It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!!
It is exactly what they have given us!

[Richard G]

Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings.
Best wishes
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.
If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Thanks for the heads up on this book Rick, despite all the stuff about the huge treasure on the Whydah ('found' in 1984) and the huge caches of silver and gold in chests in the museum, why is there no mention of hordes of treasure found in the wreck? Most of the materials seem to be in huge blocks of concretion, including numbers of loose coins which have been 'worked over the years but no mention anywhere so far of huge blocks of coins,

[Rick]

If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm.
Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics.

What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic.
What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

[Rick]

He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.

[M ELEY]

Opps. Don't know how I missed this great thread you started, Jim! I remember when this whole thing went down and so badly. Too bad, as I've read Barry's books on Expedition Whydah and his other dives on pirate ships (French privateers in the Caribbean). I don't think he personally tried to dupe anyone (it would have come out very quickly that the bar was NOT silver!). I think he just got caught up in the excitement of it all and got sloppy.

As far as why this lead ingot would have been so marked remains a mystery. As others have pointed out, lead was still a useful and semi-valuable commodity in the New World (lead was used to seal aqueducts and line the gutters of cathedrals in New Spain and Europe alike), but there is no reason it should bear the markings used on precious metals UNLESS it was made to deceive. Remember that when the Treasure Fleets were coming back from Mexico, there were many sailors that were trying to smuggle treasure back home or to steal some of the payload for themselves. That was the reason the Fleets had teams of soldiers aboard, not just to protect the ships from pirates, but from the crew!! There have been accounts (I bring this one up frequently as it is fascinating to me!!) of sailors bringing back a solid gold anchor painted black to try and get it past the bean-counters in Madrid!

Perhaps a silver bar got misappropriated and a lead one set in its place by some greedy sailors. The ruse would only have to work long enough for them to get back home. Or maybe the lead bar was handed over to marauding pirates to keep them pacified so they didn't put the crew of the captured vessel to the sword. Later on, realizing the trickery, someone angrily pitched it over the side. Who knows. In any case, I agree with most of the folks here that any item of such age and maritime history has a story to tell, a mystery to be solved and a value to collectors. Too bad we don't hear about this ingot after the debacle.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks guys!! The Captain Kidd 'mysteries' have been effectively the prevalent fiber in the great 'pirate' and 'treasure' tapestries of cultural lore since the day the unfortunate captain was hanged in 1701. It was his alluding to his burying of treasure as leverage in his prosecution that created the very notion that became the linchpin to the treasure hunting/pirate myths and legends.

Capn, in our earliest days our common bond was our fascination with pirates, and of course the Whydah and Cliffords book was part of that foundation.
Naturally we always held that sacrosanct through the years, and in more recent times, the unfortunate truths which overshadowed the important core achievements disappointingly were revealed.

Rick, as you note the discovery of the Santa Maria wreck is heavily disputed and remains so. It seems much of the identification was based on broad assumptions and the discovery of a lombard cannon (which was said to be noted in contemporary accounts). That item apparently was 'stolen' (?) since its retrieval.

In reading more on Mr. Cliffords exploits, the 'discovery' of the Revolutionary War ship General Arnold in 1976 was given great fanfare. However it was later found that while the vessel foundered on a shoal, it was apparently not sunk and was later refloated and went back into service under another name, Amsterdam, as Benedict Arnold had been disgraced.

What Clifford apparently found was the remains of a barge which carried stone.

This sounds remarkably like the situation with the large ingot found at Isle of St. Marie in Madagascar, in which this was heralded as proof of the wreck of Kidd's 'Adventure Galley'.
Somehow the declaration of this unusually large ingot as silver ended up being found to be LEAD, and the wreckage not from a vessel but debris from dock construction.
Ironically this unfortunate result recalls the 'discovery' of the 'General Arnold' notably, with the mundane 'evidence' shown.

With the spurious 'silver' bar, it was apparently presented to Malagasy officials in Madagascar, so that must be where it remained. To date I have never found any mention of the 'Adventure Galley' being located, nor any rebuttal etc from Mr. Clifford over the last decade saying otherwise.


Capn Mark, I think your idea that this spuriously marked lead bar was likely pitched overboard is most likely. While lead ingots used as ballast were often offloaded into a harbor to discharge weight, obviously if this were the case there would have been many more in the location.
With these curious markings and the singular presence, clearly this bar was an attempt to disguise it as silver. There is no evidence that it would be linked to Captain Kidd as numbers of pirate vessels and activity were often present in this pirate hub.

The idea of disguising gold bars by painting them black is very "Maltese Falcon' but curious in that distinctive shape and cryptic symbols used in assaying would make the item still obvious as a precious metal ingot..even if painted black. Still stranger things have happened, so possible. .......but an ANCHOR made of gold??? yikes! That would be incredible.

Lead ingots were indeed made intended as for use as ballast, the primary foundaries were in England, in fact many Dutch ships acquired these for such use. If I understand correctly the shape is somewhat different in these heavy ingots, and some resembled somewhat the Madagascar one (sort of a stylized fish shape). There were it seems some sort of identifying stamp marks used (as I did find a chart of some of them) but does not seem as controlled obviously as assayed metals.


I am still up to my ears in Captain Kidd related references along with maritime archaeology books mostly trying to somehow catalog all of the influence this unintended 'pirate' carried into the iconic legends of piracy.
Most notably of course was the 'treasure hunting' phenomenon that thoroughly influenced literature, and via that venue led to remarkable deceptive circumstances widely practiced. These became part of popular culture and iconic elements of the adventure so cherished by so many.

As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure

Possibly for the treasure hunter/s Jim, maybe not so much for the Bank and the private backers/investors when the expedition fails to produce.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Possibly for the treasure hunter/s Jim, maybe not so much for the Bank and the private backers/investors when the expedition fails to produce.

Oh yeah, how could I forget. Forgive my romantic faux pas.
Also forgot, caveat emptor. The bottom line I was referring to was the artifacts and discoveries found (hopefully)despite the lack of actual 'treasure'.

[Jim McDougall]

In a related ironic note with the notorious Captain Kidd at the helm, actually he was a well established business man in New York when he became interested in the privateer venture along with 'pirate' hunting. This was of course in effect a syndicated venture with key political figures and likely other investors who stood to realize notable profit from the potential prizes and captures.

It was when Kidd's voyages were not presenting such prizes that Kidd reluctantly and inadvertently became a 'pirate' himself.
While technically he thought he was acting within his legal parameters, and ultimately arrested and scapegoated by the governor to cover his complicity in the scheme, Kidd's use of alleged hidden treasure for leverage created the ever looming trope of 'pirate treasure' that has become iconic in popular culture.

One of the most noted examples of this has been the legendary Oak Island Money Pit, with its 'story' of presumed buried treasure, often purported to have been Kidd's in various versions. The details of this long heralded mystery are too complex to discuss here, however the most notable point is that this location has been the source for many syndicated treasure seeking efforts from the early 19th century. Obviously the vast amounts of capital invested have been profound and of course effectively fruitless. However, the relentless search continues and has provided seemingly endless subject matter for writers, film makers and adventure seekers ever since the early syndicates and other ventures to solve the mystery.

That was but one aspect of the 'Kidd treasure' syndrome, which influenced early treasure seekers (known as money diggers) which ironically became indirectly associated with the origins virtually of an entire religion, the Mormon Faith. The family of the founder Joseph Smith was at one time deeply involved in these activities which were prevalent in upper state New York in particular, where the family lived.
The point here is not to introduce controversy, but to note how entirely pervasive was Kidd's purported buried treasure in those times, and how it became almost a cultural phenomenon.

Early writers such as Washington Irving and James Fenimore Cooper who became literary icons brought the notions of Kidd's buried treasure into their scope. These later influenced Poe in his "The Gold Bug", which in turn became imbued into the quintessant pirate/buried treasure drama "Treasure Island" which immortalized Robert Louis Stevenson as the most important pirate author.

I wanted to illustrate in more detail what I meant regarding 'buried treasure' and adventure. In virtually all aspects of the centuries of searching for the jealously believed treasure of Captain Kidd, clearly nothing in the sense of precious materials has ever been found.....but the adventures that most of us from childhood forward have always treasured have remained sacrosanct in our memories.

And the search will continue.

[Jim McDougall]

Still doing research on the lead ballast ingots (pigs) used in vessels in the 17th c. and it seems one of the key sources on study of these was written in 2013 by Mack McCarthy, "Lead Ingots from the Wreck of the Zuiddorp (1712) Western Australia" (International Journal of Nautical Archaeology" 2013.

This is incredibly comprehensive and detailed and lists many sources on this topic from many Dutch wrecks of 17th c. into 18th. Apparently English foundry's supplied much of the lead supply for the Dutch and other European nations, though obviously not exclusively, but major supplier.

As I went through this work (very detailed @ 18 pages) I found charts classifying the types etc. and one category (Type IV (ZT 3388 fig.6) has similar 'boat' shape to the CLIFFORD FIND in Madagascar. Apparently the example illustrated is heavier than the Clifford example, the shape is significant.

Also, concerning the markings:
It seems these lead ingots were indeed marked with various motifs, numbers, letters, initials and ciphers, sometimes dates.
Also apparently various merchants etc. would apply their own marks etc. along the use of these.
Rather than always being offloaded as 'wanladen' (useless and with no market value) often these remained in the hull under the cargo floors as part of the vessels weight and balance.

Without delving further into the complexities of lead ballast ingots here, the point is that this mysterious ingot found by the Clifford venture in the harbor at Isle ste. Marie appears to have been an authentically marked example rather than deceptively intended.
While it is puzzling why only a single ingot would be found as most finds of these from wrecks of course number from 100 or more. However, as the debris said to be from dock construction is suggested rather than that of a vessel, perhaps such items might have been used in those activities?
Whatever the case, it seems to have been a lead ballast ingot with examples of the many progressive marking characters used in wide variation in those times.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Yes, very interesting Jim, took me on a wee google tour. Mostly ballast seemed to be rock or pig iron in those days.

It has occurred to me that perhaps the lead was cargo not ballast. Lead had a lot of valuable uses in those days - pipes for plumbing, water tanks and kitchen pots, roofing joints and not to mention ammunition.
It is probably too big to be the ship's musket ball supply!

Perhaps the marks are the maker's name and confirming the 95% lead content.

Probably too early for radiation shielding!

I found in reading through some material there was indeed 'lead sheeting' applied to hulls to shield from shot, sounds surprising but your idea apparently not far fetched!

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found in reading through some material there was indeed 'lead sheeting' applied to hulls to shield from shot, sounds surprising but your idea apparently not far fetched!

Ah - the radiation shielding was just a comment on the fact that x-ray examination of the ingot would not be possible.

Your research into the markings on ballast lead was very interesting.
I was always doubtful that it could be passed off as silver. But lead and silver do have similarities - silver is very close in weight to lead (7% lighter) and silver oxidises to black and of course could be painted, so possible. The Lone Ranger (must do a link to your nostalgia thread - still looking for that sixgun) and various werewolf hunters can testify that silver makes just as good bullets as lead.

But (google again) lead is much softer than silver at near the bottom of the hardness table while silver is mid range. So we can protect ourselves from future scams by merely digging a thumbnail into the ingot before parting with any cash!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Ah - the radiation shielding was just a comment on the fact that x-ray examination of the ingot would not be possible.

Your research into the markings on ballast lead was very interesting.
I was always doubtful that it could be passed off as silver. But lead and silver do have similarities - silver is very close in weight to lead (7% lighter) and silver oxidises to black and of course could be painted, so possible. The Lone Ranger (must do a link to your nostalgia thread - still looking for that sixgun) and various werewolf hunters can testify that silver makes just as good bullets as lead.

But (google again) lead is much softer than silver at near the bottom of the hardness table while silver is mid range. So we can protect ourselves from future scams by merely digging a thumbnail into the ingot before parting with any cash!

Thank you CC!
Wonderful note on the 'Lone Ranger'! and the nod to that thread which has been a lot of fun, we all treasure those memories of yesteryear,.
Actually I recall an instance years ago in my years with the airlines, Clinton Moore, the actor who portrayed the Lone Ranger was traveling, and in the worst abomination ever......his trusty guns were stolen!!! Much worse than an ordinary crime, this was the worst deed imaginable as our young values of justice and honor were shaken to the core.

Great analogies!

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to the topic which is basically, DID Captain Kidd have a treasure in the first place, and why would the the ADVENTURE GALLEY have been a candidate for holding said treasure?

Despite the short lived excitement brought by Clifford's purported finding of the ADVENTURE GALLEY in the harbor at St.Marys in Madagascar, all current references note the remains have NOT been found, and no further rebuttal has been forthcoming toward that event, nor any further effort or interest in finding this wreck has seemed to exist.,

In looking into this ship itself, it was apparently launched at one of Englands largest shipyards, that of Captain Willam Castle at Deptford, outside London, in 1695. When Kidd was backed by the syndicate of investors, the governor and several high station individuals, the latter of marque was approved by King William III who also would gain a percentage....he acquired the vessel in 1696.

When he ventured forth into his 'pirate hunting' enterprise, presumably his goal was more toward confiscating the great riches they were acquiring from their conquests than to bring these pirates to justice. Having virtually zero success in finding, let alone taking any pirate prizes in the two years he plied the waters in the Indian Ocean and others, he finally inadvertently became 'pirate' himself. This was by taking two prizes, the ROUPARELLE (November) and the large Armenian vessel for India, the QUEDAGH MERCHANT off the Malabar Coast in 1698.
As typically the case, these 'treasure' aboard merchant ships was goods, not gold, silver and jewels (though obviously these were somewhat present as currency in trade).

So after TWO years of being at sea, the Adventure Galley had become a leaking and barely seaworthy vessel. Kidd decided to take it and the Rouparelle to St. Marys, and the larger Quedah Merchant was to become the vessel of use.
As far as known, the Adventure Galley was OFFLOADED and sunk somewhere off the NW coast of Madagascar, it never made it to St.Marys. It seems the Rouparelle renamed 'November' was scuttled at St. Marys, likely burned as several other vessels there.
The remaining vessel, the Quedah Merchant took Kidd to Hispaniola (now Dominican Republic), where eventually it was too sunk after Kidd purchased a sloop.
That wreck there has presumably been located.

Captain Kidd was never a very successful privateer, pirate hunter...and certainly not pirate. The few prizes he took were unlikely to have held any large quantities of 'treasure', though a degree of such proceeds were indeed secreted at Gardiners Island just prior to arrest, and was quickly retrieved after. The value was nominal, and Kidd tried to imply more treasure was to be found using it as a bargaining chip.

It was entirely a ploy, any treasure that existed would have been taken OFF his vessels BEFORE they were scuttled. None of these ships were 'LOST' unexpectedly. He had few prizes with evidence of huge riches, they held primarily goods which were sold off. Those proceeds were, as with most pirates, quickly spent, not buried.

So the key question here applies mostly to the subject of LEAD INGOTS used as ballast, and why would this example have EVER been mistaken (?) for silver?

Just some thoughts to reiterate the theme of the thread and discussion.

By this time (1698)

[Jim McDougall]

It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references.
B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ?
While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities.
It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew.

We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island".

But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned.

Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate.

I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean.
While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released.
From there, no further record exists of him.

Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously.

So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here.

It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here.
Pirate mysteries never get old!!

[Rick]

Decrepit ships were often burned for their iron in those times, especially if the location was as far flung as Madagascar was back then. This may contribute to the mystery about these vessels.

Now for an illustration of the good captain entertaining visitors aboard in New York before he fell on harder times. How could anyone as genteel as that kill a seaman with a bucket.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas.

Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc.

I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play.

Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews.
They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy.

Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes.
Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 !

Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread.

all the best
Jim

[David R]

Seems appropriate for here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

[Rick]

I'm with you, Jim.
I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site.
I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site.
Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters.
I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod.

A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal.

Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign

You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!