Bali keris query follow up

SidJ · 29th January 2025, 11:26 AM

Hi
Further to my previous post, I would be grateful for your views on the likely age and merits of this Bali gonjo iras 9 luk keris. I restained the blade as there were areas of rust. The horizontal line above the trunk is interesting. Is the pamor uler lulu or bendo sagodo? Blade is 40.5cm. Thanks

JeffS · 29th January 2025, 03:06 PM

I will let the experts comment but I'm impressed with the stain assuming you did not use traditional methods with arsenic or realgar. How did you do it?

SidJ · 29th January 2025, 03:20 PM

Realgar and lemon juice. I can't access lab arsenic sadly. But it turned out well.

Sajen · 29th January 2025, 08:59 PM

Hello Sid,

Good result of the staining!

But you should redo it but first make sure that you have removed all rust, I still see a lot of rust, see pic.

Regards,
Detlef

SidJ · 30th January 2025, 12:11 AM

Hi Detlef
Yes I got impatient and wanted to see if I could bring out the panoramic. I will work on loosening the remaining rust.

SidJ · 30th January 2025, 12:40 AM

Hi Detlef
Yes I got impatient and wanted to see if I could bring out the panoramic. I will work on loosening the remaining rust.

SidJ · 2nd February 2025, 03:21 PM

Over 3100 'views' yet no engagement. Are these real people or just fake bots at play here. Very odd indeed.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2025, 07:52 PM

Sid, the reason that I have not commented is that if I cannot say something positive I try not to say anything at all.

Going ahead with a stain job in the absence of the essential blade clean beforehand is really not a good thing to do, it simply makes the job longer & harder.

You did ask three direct questions:-

1) age of the keris, I take that as blade only, it is probably 19th century, possibly earlier, not later, additionally it is probably Lombok/Bali, not Island of Bali.

2) comment on merits, I can see nothing in particular that would set it apart from the average run of older Balinese keris, except of course the lack of a separate gonjo, there is some loss of detail in the carving, which is the reason I opted for the "possibly earlier" comment in 1).

3) is the pamor motif bendo sagodo or uler lulut? I would give it as bendo sagodo, but in Bali it would most likely be given as pamor santa, both bendo sagodo (bendha sagada) & uler lulut are Javanese names.

SidJ · 3rd February 2025, 10:00 AM

Thanks Alan,
Very grateful for your thoughts as always. Noted re cleaning well before staining. The stuff that remains is a very hard encrustation. I'm soaking the blade in mineral oil in the hope it will soften this enough to be scraped off. I don't have any wd40 at hand but will get some if the oil fails. The keris aesthetic in terms of form feels very harmonious to me for want of a better term. It has an elegant grace to the proportions in its simple ordinariness and I cannot identify any areas of harshness in this regard. Please do let me know if you see otherwise. I am perfectly content with negative views. It's nothing personal to me and aids learning about assessing keris.

David · 3rd February 2025, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Very grateful for your thoughts as always. Noted re cleaning well before staining. The stuff that remains is a very hard encrustation. I'm soaking the blade in mineral oil in the hope it will soften this enough to be scraped off. I don't have any wd40 at hand but will get some if the oil fails. The keris aesthetic in terms of form feels very harmonious to me for want of a better term. It has an elegant grace to the proportions in its simple ordinariness and I cannot identify any areas of harshness in this regard. Please do let me know if you see otherwise. I am perfectly content with negative views. It's nothing personal to me and aids learning about assessing keris.

Sid, i know it is never satisfying to post something and get limited responses, but often people choose not to respond when they don't feel they have anything of value to add to the conversation. So i wonder what more you are hoping for at this point. To be clear, i like this keris and if it crossed my path at the right price i would probably try to add it to my collection. That said, we are not looking at a high end piece of Balinese/Lombok keris art here. The proportions are not bad, but i might stop short of using the word "elegant". Ricikin such as greneng, sekar kacang and jalen all seem rather rough and not particularly well formed.
I would agree with Alan that pamor santa would probably be the best name for this pamor and that 19th century Lombok is a likely origin. I can assure you that real members of our forum have indeed been viewing this thread, but i am not sure what more engagement you were hoping for.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd February 2025, 09:41 PM

Sid, to remove those hard encrustations we use a scraper & a hard pointed tool, I use a saddler's awl for the pointy thing, and for the scraper I use an old worn out three sided file that I have ground a radius onto.

You scrape and pick at the rust & then re-immerse in the cleaning medium. For spots such as you have, I would use hydrochloride acid dabbed onto the scraped spot and watched while it was working, & then repeat as many times as needed. Then I'd finish the cleaning with brief soak in vinegar, say, about a day.

After that, polish with sink cleaner & steel wool, in Jawa we use coconut husk & abu gosok.

After you get the blade white you can stain, not before.

SidJ · 5th February 2025, 01:55 PM

Thanks Alan
Good to know the right way to do it. What do you mean by grinding a radius in the presumably triangle shaped file please?

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2025, 05:35 PM

By a radius, I mean a curve, a part of a circle.

So, using a grinder you grind a curve into the small end, not the tang end, of a three sided file, a 6"-8" file is about the right size.

The curve runs from one of the sides to the opposite edge.

SidJ · 9th February 2025, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sid, i know it is never satisfying to post something and get limited responses, but often people choose not to respond when they don't feel they have anything of value to add to the conversation. So i wonder what more you are hoping for at this point. To be clear, i like this keris and if it crossed my path at the right price i would probably try to add it to my collection. That said, we are not looking at a high end piece of Balinese/Lombok keris art here. The proportions are not bad, but i might stop short of using the word "elegant". Ricikin such as greneng, sekar kacang and jalen all seem rather rough and not particularly well formed.
I would agree with Alan that pamor santa would probably be the best name for this pamor and that 19th century Lombok is a likely origin. I can assure you that real members of our forum have indeed been viewing this thread, but i am not sure what more engagement you were hoping for.

Hi David
I had asked some questions which Alan has kindly responded to. That is the engagement I sought along with your own observations. Getting g thousands of views is great but I would not call that engagement in any meaningful way as it does not facilitate any learning.

David · 9th February 2025, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Hi David
I had asked some questions which Alan has kindly responded to. That is the engagement I sought along with your own observations. Getting g thousands of views is great but I would not call that engagement in any meaningful way as it does not facilitate any learning.

Understood. But again, people are always going to look, but if they have nothing to offer of any value you wouldn't really want them to post, would you?

SidJ · 9th February 2025, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Understood. But again, people are always going to look, but if they have nothing to offer of any value you wouldn't really want them to post, would you?

Agree David. But my queries were fairly straightforward, which is why I found the lack of response puzzling given the high traffic it generated. Anyway all is well.

JeffS · 13th February 2025, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

By a radius, I mean a curve, a part of a circle.

So, using a grinder you grind a curve into the small end, not the tang end, of a three sided file, a 6"-8" file is about the right size.

The curve runs from one of the sides to the opposite edge.

Sorry, still trying to visualize this. Is the radius to blunt the point in order to widen the scraping surface to avoid gouging?

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2025, 08:25 AM

The radius is to create a scraper cutting edge.

It is such as is found on a mechanic's bearing scraper.

At the moment I'm not at home, & will not be until March, then I can post a photo or two.

29th January 2025, 11:26 AM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Bali keris query follow up Hi Further to my previous post, I would be grateful for your views on the likely age and merits of this Bali gonjo iras 9 luk keris. I restained the blade as there were areas of rust. The horizontal line above the trunk is interesting. Is the pamor uler lulu or bendo sagodo? Blade is 40.5cm. Thanks Attached Images

29th January 2025, 08:59 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,409	Hello Sid, Good result of the staining! But you should redo it but first make sure that you have removed all rust, I still see a lot of rust, see pic. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

29th January 2025, 03:06 PM	#2
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 441	I will let the experts comment but I'm impressed with the stain assuming you did not use traditional methods with arsenic or realgar. How did you do it?

29th January 2025, 03:20 PM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Realgar and lemon juice. I can't access lab arsenic sadly. But it turned out well.

30th January 2025, 12:11 AM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Hi Detlef Yes I got impatient and wanted to see if I could bring out the panoramic. I will work on loosening the remaining rust.

30th January 2025, 12:40 AM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Hi Detlef Yes I got impatient and wanted to see if I could bring out the panoramic. I will work on loosening the remaining rust.

2nd February 2025, 03:21 PM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Over 3100 'views' yet no engagement. Are these real people or just fake bots at play here. Very odd indeed.

2nd February 2025, 07:52 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Sid, the reason that I have not commented is that if I cannot say something positive I try not to say anything at all. Going ahead with a stain job in the absence of the essential blade clean beforehand is really not a good thing to do, it simply makes the job longer & harder. You did ask three direct questions:- 1) age of the keris, I take that as blade only, it is probably 19th century, possibly earlier, not later, additionally it is probably Lombok/Bali, not Island of Bali. 2) comment on merits, I can see nothing in particular that would set it apart from the average run of older Balinese keris, except of course the lack of a separate gonjo, there is some loss of detail in the carving, which is the reason I opted for the "possibly earlier" comment in 1). 3) is the pamor motif bendo sagodo or uler lulut? I would give it as bendo sagodo, but in Bali it would most likely be given as pamor santa, both bendo sagodo (bendha sagada) & uler lulut are Javanese names.

3rd February 2025, 10:00 AM	#9
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Thanks Alan, Very grateful for your thoughts as always. Noted re cleaning well before staining. The stuff that remains is a very hard encrustation. I'm soaking the blade in mineral oil in the hope it will soften this enough to be scraped off. I don't have any wd40 at hand but will get some if the oil fails. The keris aesthetic in terms of form feels very harmonious to me for want of a better term. It has an elegant grace to the proportions in its simple ordinariness and I cannot identify any areas of harshness in this regard. Please do let me know if you see otherwise. I am perfectly content with negative views. It's nothing personal to me and aids learning about assessing keris.

3rd February 2025, 09:41 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Sid, to remove those hard encrustations we use a scraper & a hard pointed tool, I use a saddler's awl for the pointy thing, and for the scraper I use an old worn out three sided file that I have ground a radius onto. You scrape and pick at the rust & then re-immerse in the cleaning medium. For spots such as you have, I would use hydrochloride acid dabbed onto the scraped spot and watched while it was working, & then repeat as many times as needed. Then I'd finish the cleaning with brief soak in vinegar, say, about a day. After that, polish with sink cleaner & steel wool, in Jawa we use coconut husk & abu gosok. After you get the blade white you can stain, not before.

5th February 2025, 01:55 PM	#12
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Thanks Alan Good to know the right way to do it. What do you mean by grinding a radius in the presumably triangle shaped file please?

5th February 2025, 05:35 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	By a radius, I mean a curve, a part of a circle. So, using a grinder you grind a curve into the small end, not the tang end, of a three sided file, a 6"-8" file is about the right size. The curve runs from one of the sides to the opposite edge.

13th February 2025, 08:25 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	The radius is to create a scraper cutting edge. It is such as is found on a mechanic's bearing scraper. At the moment I'm not at home, & will not be until March, then I can post a photo or two.