Karabela european?

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=serdar;295201]I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.













I thought perhaps responding directly to this original post best, as clearly discussion is not possible and what is sought is a direct answer, no less.

As far as can be found thus far, no IDENTICAL cross configuration of these stars can compare. It is noted that these star stamps are seen on various north Italian blades. As far as known, like many such markings on blades, these are not directly associated to certain makers, though on occasions they do occur with actual makers punzone.
There are of course speculations but it is dangerous to cite them at the risk of academic ire.

However I have found support for the fact that this MAY well be a SHAMSHIR LIKE blade of early 16th century from Italy. ...
A scimitar dated 1618 (Wallace Coll. , Mann, 1962, A713, p.363) shown from Italy.

In Mann (op.cit.p.361) it is noted:
:...this scimitar is an example of mingling of European and Asiatic styles in Venice".

It may be presumed that this practice likely existed prior to this and did not suddenly occur one day in 1618. Thus, it is quite possible that this shamshir like blade might be this early, made in Italy, thus marked using the same type stars in a locally peculiar configuration.......temptingly in accord with the Jerusalem cross.

The entire 'karabela' attribution is irrelevant and the present hilt on the blade appears much later addition, and cannot be properly or forensically classified from photos and physical handling. Thus, this hilt resembling karabela types does not necessarily bear on the identification of the blade (nor for that matter the guard).

I hope these comments might be perceived as objectively presented and my opinions are in accord.

[serdar]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;295336]

Originally Posted by serdar

I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.













I thought perhaps responding directly to this original post best, as clearly discussion is not possible and what is sought is a direct answer, no less.

As far as can be found thus far, no IDENTICAL cross configuration of these stars can compare. It is noted that these star stamps are seen on various north Italian blades. As far as known, like many such markings on blades, these are not directly associated to certain makers, though on occasions they do occur with actual makers punzone.
There are of course speculations but it is dangerous to cite them at the risk of academic ire.

However I have found support for the fact that this MAY well be a SHAMSHIR LIKE blade of early 16th century from Italy. ...
A scimitar dated 1618 (Wallace Coll. , Mann, 1962, A713, p.363) shown from Italy.

In Mann (op.cit.p.361) it is noted:
:...this scimitar is an example of mingling of European and Asiatic styles in Venice".

It may be presumed that this practice likely existed prior to this and did not suddenly occur one day in 1618. Thus, it is quite possible that this shamshir like blade might be this early, made in Italy, thus marked using the same type stars in a locally peculiar configuration.......temptingly in accord with the Jerusalem cross.

The entire 'karabela' attribution is irrelevant and the present hilt on the blade appears much later addition, and cannot be properly or forensically classified from photos and physical handling. Thus, this hilt resembling karabela types does not necessarily bear on the identification of the blade (nor for that matter the guard).

I hope these comments might be perceived as objectively presented and my opinions are in accord.

I definetly agree with you.

Il post you a pictures of two sabers originated from persia,
I would lik you to coment on them, and your opinion,

One is Adžemkinja it is called in balkan region that way, a name for Persia, it looks like old style kilij, it has latter aded rings on crosguard and pomel hole, very good blade, and nice horn, blade has an unusual engraving on both sides, very hard to translate for my translator.

Second one is Išfahanka allso balkan name for saber from Isfahan, blade is wootz, it has three gold seals, and two gold medalions that are fallen off, blade is with yalman in style that i have seen and have on my other sabers they are dated 16/17 century, good quality and used alot, (i have same style but in khorasan black wootz, slimer blade mounted in ottoman shamshir), handle and scabbard is similar to boka kotorska sabers, but it is not made in boka kotorska, all is persian.

[serdar]

And second

[serdar]

Hmm it seems it rotated pictures 😂😁 uff.

On the second saber, chain is allso later aded, not originaly there.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Serdar, and for asking my opinion.
As I admittedly have only limited knowledge on these Islamic swords, I can only say subjectively these are remarkable beautiful 'shamshirs' (if I may use that term collectively). It is quite clear by their very character you are well versed in the character of these type swords.

Thank you for pointing out the Balkan terms for these. With that noted, I cannot offer any definitive objective comments, but must ask if these inscriptions might reflect Ottoman influences, as obviously would be the case in certain Balkan regions.

The influences of and actual preference for Persian arms seem to prevail in numbers of other cultural spheres as 'shamshirs' seem to often appear in regions in India, Arabia (including various Sultanates in Africa). If not mistaken I associate the chain guard addition to certain sa'if from Yemen
(Hadhramaut in particular).
As noted, these are observations in the form of questions of course.

Thanks again
Jim

[serdar]

How do you mean if inscriptions would indicate ottoman influences?
Do you mean in term what is writen, style?
Or puting them on the blades in the first place?
These two examples are from ottoman army atack on Montenegro, ottomans were defeated and those were a war trophy.

[serdar]

Sorry for late response.