Karabela european?

[Jim McDougall]

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

First of, i writen wrongly, italian not german.

Second, it is obvious awdaniec666 and you dodnt read or didnt understand what i writen, i was asking about marks and not about your opinions on origin of a blade, mark is clearly visoble but if you say that you can determine quality, origin or anything about some sword from only pictures, then sir you are a fraud.

Second thing is about my involvement on forum, i was reading all the posts for years, one do not need to write and discuc to know the quality of a forum, or to see a forum droped in quality, and for you to write that to me shows your competention and quality.

Im finished with d. Measurements with you and awdani666, you both showed enough of your “quality and persona”.

That saber i posted is a karabela, has a 250-300 hundred years old birds head handle on it and i think around 550-500 years old italian blade.
And if you by looking at pictures of it want to call it a shamshir, a yatagan or a rapier, please do, idgf for it.
But it is a karabela.

[serdar]

PLEASE
If some one has seen identical mark, and has a data on it, do write.

Please d. measurers like awdani666 and jim mcdougall whose writing and biases i readed long ago, dont post b.s. Without any couse.

If you cant read what is writen and respect that, then it is better for administrator to delete whole thing becouse this is just stupid, for me to post a pictures and clearly ask about markings 100% stating and i can guarantee that, that it isnt persian blade, and then those two diletants repedeatly coming and proclaiming it persian and frankenstein, and how can someone say that forum didnt plumeted!!??

I mean guys realy? Do you read what is writen and do you understand it? I know english is not my mother language, but im not that bad that is unreadable.

[serdar]

I cant write about me and my credentials, it would take lots of time and efort, but they exist, but if anyone of you awdani or jim are ready to take bet on proving that this is persian and not karabela, im ready to host you and put one milion on bet, you put 10% of that and its ok, or dont write noncenses.

No one with healthy mind cant say something about sword by picture only, not even some old colectors from my country.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

I cant write about me and my credentials, it would take lots of time and efort, but they exist, but if anyone of you awdani or jim are ready to take bet on proving that this is persian and not karabela, im ready to host you and put one milion on bet, you put 10% of that and its ok, or dont write noncenses.

No one with healthy mind cant say something about sword by picture only, not even some old colectors from my country.

Possibly you might read more thoroughly as well, and obviously no conclusions can be asserted without hands on examination. I am so glad that you finally decided to write after lurking all these years, and denying us all your expertise, and I dont mean that sarcsastically. What is unfortunate is your notably contentious tone, which is unnecessary, obviously English is not your native language, but as you note, you do quite well.

I have NEVER said this blade was Persian, but in SHAMSHIR style. it seems apparent, even to a novice such as I, that it is not Persian, but seems intended to imitate them. This I would note is my opinion only, not intended as b/s.

Like the hilt, it is karabela like, but made in imitation, and as you note, hard to say how old from photos. In all you posts you note examples that are less than genuine, so you seem to have a viable awareness of such characteristics. It can be called karabela, why not? It is similar, though not EXACT.

Your very personal insults are unfortunate and unnecessary. I do not feel that posting information and researched material in order to augment a discussion is biased or b/s. For someone with your credentials and lauded background, those comments seem a bit disappointing.
While we try to post 'opinions' in hopes of constructive discussion, I do not believe we have been 'assertive' and these are posted openly and expecting other views.

What is nonsense is this waste of time with personality issues. As I have noted I would welcome your posting of earlier (than 17th century) ITALIAN (not German as you originally said) blades like this of SHAMSHIR TYPE.
It would not be surprising to see a karabela TYPE hilt produced in Italian regions as Ottoman and Persian weapons were highly prized.

In Arabia as well, I have seen many sabers with hilts, guards produced in such forms and Persian blades were as noted highly prized.

Hopefully we can get this back on better course.

BTW: a dilettante is defined as a person who cultivates an area of interest but without real commitment or knowledge. While I may not have 'credentials' I have committed to the study of arms history most of my life and with a passion to learn. While I have gained a good deal of knowledge which is of course a work in progress. Even with well over 50 years of study I find far more questions with every answer I discover. Just FYI.

PS I will continue seeking the marking you show on this blade. While I have most of the compendiums, the records of markings are comprehensive, but barely scratch the surface of the vast numbers that were used. The notion that every maker had a distinct marking which was recorded by a guild is hardly the case overall. The spurious use of markings was rampant and these kinds of uses resulted in unusual variations and incongruent pairings of marks as originally intended.