A keraton (?) keris in east javanese dress, where is the blade from?

David · 25th November 2024, 05:29 PM

[QUOTE=Sajen;294450]Hello David, Where you see better photos of the hilt?/QUOTE]

There was a short video detailing this hilt on a post about this keris on a keris facebook page.

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2024, 07:09 PM

David, I have not seen this FB video.

I do not do FB, I was very briefly a member, then FB became too intrusive, and I was unable to see any plus factors at all in continuing with FB, I cannot look at FB content.

What I said about Sumatera was:-

"The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa."

I've never seen something like this from Sumatera either, but the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran seluts and the hilt itself has echoes of some Sumatran hilts. The fluting on the hilt I cannot recall having seen anywhere.

Yes, it does appear to have some age, but false patina & a bit of dirt is not at all difficult to produce. To my eye, the carving of the hilt, although very competent, does not flow, it looks stiff.

The operative word in all my posts to this thread is "feeling".

I am not stating opinions, I'm looking at pictures and I am not feeling anything I can associate with Jawa, but I am feeling that all the parts of this complete keris are from different origins.

The hilt is a problem, so if I run through all of the possibilities I cannot recall anything quite like this that I have ever come across, not a picture in a book, not online, not in a museum collection, not in a private collection, not with a dealer, & not amongst the 800 or so hilts that I have myself. And this hilt is well carved. Surely there must be something similar around somewhere? But I have yet to see it.

As I have said:- feeling, not opinion.

I am absolutely open to being shown that this complete keris genuinely old & definitely from a single --- or even multiple --- geographic points of origin.

David · 25th November 2024, 10:35 PM

That's OK Alan, you don't need to see the video on FB since Wijaya has provide us with more detailed photos that should give us most of what we need to see. (These photos might have still been in Moderation when you made you last comment so scroll back up and have a look

)
Like you the fluted body leaves me scratching my head as well. I have also never seen this before. The fanged face and the long hair down the back however seem to place this hilt in the category of Buta/Raksasa hilts. I can't say that i have seen this form in Sumatran hilts. If we just l look at the head and way the face is carved and ignore the fluted body for a second it is hard for me not to be put in mind of the more upright variety of these Buta hilts found in North Jawa/Cirebon. But i agree that the rest of the hilt creates a lot of confusion. Regardless, even if a bit stiff, the hilt is artistically carved and well executed. I suppose it is possible that it artificially aged modern creation, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I do believe that we both have the same "feeling" though that all parts of this keris have come from different origins, This surely is a keris that needs to be examined first hand in order to come to any conclusions and even then it could well remain a mystery.

A. G. Maisey · 26th November 2024, 12:08 AM

David, the hilt you have shown is absolutely typical of North Coast Jawa through into East Jawa, I've got some of these myself.

To me, the carving of Wijaya's hilt, although very good, displays a hodgepodge of styles:-

there is the demon face, not problem to fit this into Nth. Coast & East Jawa, then we have the lung-lungan (vine-like) enhancements, we can see similar --- not the same, but similar --- in Central Jawa hilts, the fluting is from way out the ballpark, don't have any idea at all where it might have come from. Sri Lanka rings a bell, & yeah, go back far enough there are records of keris in Sri Langka, and South India too for that matter.

The selut looks as if the carver had it in his hand when he was carving the hilt, it does not look like a later addition, it looks like it has been there from day one.

The whole thing is confusing.

There is always the possibility that we are looking at something that was made to the directions of owner, not following an established pattern, but incorporating acceptable elements. Might well be a one off.

But when was it made? I sure cannot tell from a photo on a computer screen. Maybe I could not tell at all.

I was flimflamed once --- around 35 years ago --- by a very well known dealer in Surabaya, superb Bali ivory hilt, it took me more than 20 years before I learnt that this dealer employed a craftsman who was able to produce superb work, & the dealer himself had mastered ivory patination & aging. If anybody at all looked at it right now there is no way that it could be picked as a forgery. Its that good.

Thus:- I often doubt --- especially where money is involved.

Sajen · 25th November 2024, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

There was a short video detailing this hilt on a post about this keris on a keris facebook page.

Hello David,

Like Alan, I don't use FB! So it would be great when Wijaya provides some pictures here at the forum so that the members here who don't use FB can have a look at the nice hilt.

Regards,
Detlef

25th November 2024, 10:35 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	That's OK Alan, you don't need to see the video on FB since Wijaya has provide us with more detailed photos that should give us most of what we need to see. (These photos might have still been in Moderation when you made you last comment so scroll back up and have a look ) Like you the fluted body leaves me scratching my head as well. I have also never seen this before. The fanged face and the long hair down the back however seem to place this hilt in the category of Buta/Raksasa hilts. I can't say that i have seen this form in Sumatran hilts. If we just l look at the head and way the face is carved and ignore the fluted body for a second it is hard for me not to be put in mind of the more upright variety of these Buta hilts found in North Jawa/Cirebon. But i agree that the rest of the hilt creates a lot of confusion. Regardless, even if a bit stiff, the hilt is artistically carved and well executed. I suppose it is possible that it artificially aged modern creation, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I do believe that we both have the same "feeling" though that all parts of this keris have come from different origins, This surely is a keris that needs to be examined first hand in order to come to any conclusions and even then it could well remain a mystery. Attached Images

26th November 2024, 12:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	David, the hilt you have shown is absolutely typical of North Coast Jawa through into East Jawa, I've got some of these myself. To me, the carving of Wijaya's hilt, although very good, displays a hodgepodge of styles:- there is the demon face, not problem to fit this into Nth. Coast & East Jawa, then we have the lung-lungan (vine-like) enhancements, we can see similar --- not the same, but similar --- in Central Jawa hilts, the fluting is from way out the ballpark, don't have any idea at all where it might have come from. Sri Lanka rings a bell, & yeah, go back far enough there are records of keris in Sri Langka, and South India too for that matter. The selut looks as if the carver had it in his hand when he was carving the hilt, it does not look like a later addition, it looks like it has been there from day one. The whole thing is confusing. There is always the possibility that we are looking at something that was made to the directions of owner, not following an established pattern, but incorporating acceptable elements. Might well be a one off. But when was it made? I sure cannot tell from a photo on a computer screen. Maybe I could not tell at all. I was flimflamed once --- around 35 years ago --- by a very well known dealer in Surabaya, superb Bali ivory hilt, it took me more than 20 years before I learnt that this dealer employed a craftsman who was able to produce superb work, & the dealer himself had mastered ivory patination & aging. If anybody at all looked at it right now there is no way that it could be picked as a forgery. Its that good. Thus:- I often doubt --- especially where money is involved. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th November 2024 at 12:19 AM.

25th November 2024, 05:29 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	[QUOTE=Sajen;294450]Hello David, Where you see better photos of the hilt?/QUOTE] There was a short video detailing this hilt on a post about this keris on a keris facebook page.

25th November 2024, 07:09 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	David, I have not seen this FB video. I do not do FB, I was very briefly a member, then FB became too intrusive, and I was unable to see any plus factors at all in continuing with FB, I cannot look at FB content. What I said about Sumatera was:- "The hilt & selut has the feeling of Sumatera, not Jawa." I've never seen something like this from Sumatera either, but the selut is quite similar to some Sumatran seluts and the hilt itself has echoes of some Sumatran hilts. The fluting on the hilt I cannot recall having seen anywhere. Yes, it does appear to have some age, but false patina & a bit of dirt is not at all difficult to produce. To my eye, the carving of the hilt, although very competent, does not flow, it looks stiff. The operative word in all my posts to this thread is "feeling". I am not stating opinions, I'm looking at pictures and I am not feeling anything I can associate with Jawa, but I am feeling that all the parts of this complete keris are from different origins. The hilt is a problem, so if I run through all of the possibilities I cannot recall anything quite like this that I have ever come across, not a picture in a book, not online, not in a museum collection, not in a private collection, not with a dealer, & not amongst the 800 or so hilts that I have myself. And this hilt is well carved. Surely there must be something similar around somewhere? But I have yet to see it. As I have said:- feeling, not opinion. I am absolutely open to being shown that this complete keris genuinely old & definitely from a single --- or even multiple --- geographic points of origin.