Thoughts on Madura Kris

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 11:06 AM

This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day.

It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian.

"Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship.

So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual.

There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong.

The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way.

As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI.

So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy.

Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

David · 23rd November 2024, 03:24 PM

All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy.

https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm

https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html

https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx

https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

G. Mansfield · 23rd November 2024, 03:52 PM

Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones.

Geoffrey

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 08:26 PM

The stones in the mendak will be yakut (rose cut rock crystal) and mirah ; the "mirah" is a bit of a twister because it can be understood as either "ruby" or simply "red". It is most likely that the red stones are garnet.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 08:47 PM

Yes David I understand that you are repeating what you have seen in various sources, I've never seen those sources, & I do not read the social media type keris "discussions". I do not have your depth of knowledge of these other sources.

With my first post on language I was attempting to respond to your question as to the meaning of "Si Mega", but I was thinking in Javanese terms and the response I gave was incorrect.

My second post was not intended to be any sort of lesson, it was simply a correction of my previous error.

So when somebody who is using BI or Javanese or English or French uses "Si Mega" to refer to the Sumenep winged horse, that person has lifted the entire term from Madurese and not translated it into Javanese, or Bi, or any other language. This can be confusing I believe where the use of "si" rather than "ki" is understood in a different way in BI & Javanese than it is understood in Madurese.

We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

David · 25th November 2024, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

I guess what i am trying to figure out here is if Si Mega and Kuda Sembrani refer to the SAME mythological flying horse or if the idea of a flying horse appears in more than one legend. My understanding at this point is the Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese legend and that Si Mega is a Madurese one. So are we taking about the same specific creature? If flying horses exist in the mythology it would not be out of the question that there be more than just one.

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2024, 07:41 PM

My understanding is this, and my understanding could well be wrong, it has been formed from comments & the opinions of other people over a long period of time, it is not something i have ever researched.

Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese folk tale that was drawn from Middle Eastern stories of flying horses --- apparently there are many such stories --- for example, "The Thousand Nights & One Night". Over time the original ME stories congealed into one story that gained a Javanese setting.

These ME stories probably had their origin in Al Buraq, Mohammed's flying horse, or maybe it was the other way around.

In any case, there are a lot of flying horse stories in history, Pegasus is a Euro one, even the Chinese people have a flying horse.

The Si/Ki Mega flying horse came out of the Jokotole story, & this story had elements that echoed the Kuda Sembrani tale that had come from the ME, maybe Persia.

At the present time it seems that in the public understanding all these flying horses have merged into one, so different people use different names for different horses that have all become the same horse. The whole thing seems to be very confused.

Original story:- Middle East, this story gets to Jawa & is given a Javanese character & setting, it gets integrated into the Jokotole yarn.

Probably somebody with an in depth knowledge & understanding of Javanese/Madurese folk stories could unravel all of this.

23rd November 2024, 03:52 PM	#3
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Colorado Posts: 91	Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones. Geoffrey Attached Images

23rd November 2024, 11:06 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day. It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian. "Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship. So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual. There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong. The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way. As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI. So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy. Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

23rd November 2024, 03:24 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy. https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

23rd November 2024, 08:26 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	The stones in the mendak will be yakut (rose cut rock crystal) and mirah ; the "mirah" is a bit of a twister because it can be understood as either "ruby" or simply "red". It is most likely that the red stones are garnet.

23rd November 2024, 08:47 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Yes David I understand that you are repeating what you have seen in various sources, I've never seen those sources, & I do not read the social media type keris "discussions". I do not have your depth of knowledge of these other sources. With my first post on language I was attempting to respond to your question as to the meaning of "Si Mega", but I was thinking in Javanese terms and the response I gave was incorrect. My second post was not intended to be any sort of lesson, it was simply a correction of my previous error. So when somebody who is using BI or Javanese or English or French uses "Si Mega" to refer to the Sumenep winged horse, that person has lifted the entire term from Madurese and not translated it into Javanese, or Bi, or any other language. This can be confusing I believe where the use of "si" rather than "ki" is understood in a different way in BI & Javanese than it is understood in Madurese. We both know that there are multiple names that can be used for this winged horse, as to which is correct, I believe that would be contextual, in other words, the name used would be in accord with the way in which the mention of the winged horse occurred. Taking into account the peculiarities of the languages concerned, it would probably be incorrect to use just one term for the winged horse in all contexts.

25th November 2024, 07:41 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	My understanding is this, and my understanding could well be wrong, it has been formed from comments & the opinions of other people over a long period of time, it is not something i have ever researched. Kuda Sembrani is a Javanese folk tale that was drawn from Middle Eastern stories of flying horses --- apparently there are many such stories --- for example, "The Thousand Nights & One Night". Over time the original ME stories congealed into one story that gained a Javanese setting. These ME stories probably had their origin in Al Buraq, Mohammed's flying horse, or maybe it was the other way around. In any case, there are a lot of flying horse stories in history, Pegasus is a Euro one, even the Chinese people have a flying horse. The Si/Ki Mega flying horse came out of the Jokotole story, & this story had elements that echoed the Kuda Sembrani tale that had come from the ME, maybe Persia. At the present time it seems that in the public understanding all these flying horses have merged into one, so different people use different names for different horses that have all become the same horse. The whole thing seems to be very confused. Original story:- Middle East, this story gets to Jawa & is given a Javanese character & setting, it gets integrated into the Jokotole yarn. Probably somebody with an in depth knowledge & understanding of Javanese/Madurese folk stories could unravel all of this.