Moro keris/kalis ID

[adamb]

Hi All,

I'm hoping someone can provide a little information on this keris/kalis; likely source of origin in the region, and approximate age? Both are of interest but especially the latter, as it might help make sense of the inscription on the label.

Any and all insight much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Battara]

I'd venture Maguindanao (Island of Mindanao) and mid 19c.

I'll let others correct me.

[Rick]

I'd like to see a close up, in focus horizontal image of the label.
I think that's important in helping trace the history.

How about length overall, blade, etc.

That is a really nice example of an old Moro kris, and it doesn't look like it has had any recent 'restoration'.

[Maurice]

Beautiful sundang.

I would say Sulu, and pre 1880 (but I'm no expert in Filipino blades).
Maybe it even wandered with the seafarers for their piracy practices, and it ended up at the Sarawak/Borneo coastal areas.

It looks like the scabbard had been 'painted' with a kind of yellow/goldish like dye?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'd venture Maguindanao (Island of Mindanao) and mid 19c.

I'll let others correct me.

Agreed- Maguin blade (Iranun another possibility), Mindanao dress (possibly Maguin or Iranun also, but not discounting Maranao-area side). I would further conjecture that the blade is nobility-type, early to mid 1800s.

[Ian]

I'm taking a slightly different tack with this one, but will probably end up in much the same place as most comments already.

The prominent central fuller stands out on the blade. I believe this is very unusual on Moro-made kris for two reasons. First, the fuller starts some distance below the gangya (there is no "arrowhead" feature) and, second, it extends to within a centimeter of the tip. This type of fuller is seen more commonly, I think, on Malayan kris, or at least Malayan-influenced blades. I have an old and heavily patinated kris with a similar fuller and a wider than expected blade for its relatively short length and likely age.

The scabbard is of an older style, with a nicely carved cross piece, a prominent up-turn to the toe and a smaller downwards protrusion as well. There have been a few of these showing up here lately. Again, I believe this style of scabbard has a strong Malayan influence. Most kris that I have seen with this style of scabbard were in Sulu dress. Cato's book has a Sulu royalty example with a similarly styled scabbard on the dust jacket. So Maurice's suggestion that this could be a Sulu kalis has some basis, I believe.

Looking at the elephant trunk area, I have difficulty separating this one between Maguindanao, Sulu, or Malay. The area enclosed by the seca kacang (trunk) and gandhik looks more oval than round, which favors a Sulu or Malayan blade. There is a slight "fullness" of the gandhik that might suggest a Maranao origin, but it's not a typical Maranao appearance.

The hilt in this case isn't very helpful in separating tribal origin. The plaited hemp wrap is utilitarian and well suited for combat, while the diminutive kakatua pommel is a common style and includes the side panels.

I'm inclined to think this is a Malay-influenced Sulu kalis. Another possibility is Ilanun (Iranum). Ilanun communities are found in northern Borneo and to the south of Brunei. The main population resides in Mindanao, between the areas populated by Maranao and Maguindanao. They are excellent sailors (and pirates). It would be expected that some Ilanun would carry weapons with Malayan characteristics.

[Ian]

Here is one of mine in a similar style scabbard. The smaller tip on the toe is partly missing. It has a similar cross piece to the scabbard. The blade has a central ridge (no fuller) and the elephant trunk area shows Maranao features. The hilt has a similar wrap of woven fibers and a very small ivory kakatua with side panels.


.

[milandro]

I would agree with Sundag Sulu ,

The ganja being " Iras" is a bit confusing.

I would agree, this is a 19th century piece.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by milandro

I would agree with Sundag Sulu ,

The ganja being " Iras" is a bit confusing.

I would agree, this is a 19th century piece.

I don't think the ganja is 'iras', but seperate (but very tight / narrow).

[David]

Originally Posted by Maurice

I don't think the ganja is 'iras', but seperate (but very tight / narrow).

I agree, this is not gangya iras, just a really nice, tight fit. I also feel this could be Sulu, but don't really see the central fuller as a Malay influence. At least i have a kris which is clearly Moro to my mind that has a very similar central fuller to this one, so i don't see it as a feature that is only found on Malay sundangs. Sorry, but i have never photographed that kris so i can't show it right know.
It does seem to be that the tip has been somewhat reshaped. I can't tell from the photos whether there is any significant loss of length though.
Over all a beautiful, original and complete kris. Nice find Adam!

[Sajen]

I am with Raymundo and think the kris is from Mindanao, compare the scabbards, Adams and the one from Ian which is from Sulu.
Very nice kris Adam!

[RobT]

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

[adamb]

Thank you, everyone, for your extremely valuable observations.

To answer one of the above queries, yes, at some stage the scabbard was daubed, rather roughly, in yellow paint. The yellow paint, I should note, is clearly on top of the edges of the old label bearing the inscription and thus quite evidently post-dates it. There is also a crack in the scabbard that runs through this label. The fibre string binding on the scabbard might pre-date the yellow paint job, though I'm not sure about that; there seems to have been an attempt to glue the binding in place on the scabbard after it had been painted, so perhaps the binding was moved to paint below it and then shifted back into place.

Now to the inscription on the label: it's rather odd. Parts of the writing are not well-preserved and I'm working on taking close-up photographs with the hope I can decipher some or all of it in time. However, the part of the inscription that does seem legible to me and some colleagues (and, I should note, was for the most part already deciphered by the former owner's wife who spent considerable time, and ingenuity, reconstructing the text) is as follows:

"...[it was?] a present from the .... [illegible] Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson".

I am told by a historian colleague that the label "is in a neat English secretarial hand of the 19th century...the same style starts to pop up as early as the 1670s and remains quite similar after that".

I do not know what to make of this inscription at the present time, but it is interesting.

There is more writing in black ink, newer and in a different hand, over the yellow paint on the top of the cross-piece, which is as follows:

"Clayton Co", followed by an "M" below it.

I have attached pics of the label, including one in which I've used an image enhancement program to show the writing more clearly, perhaps not very successfully. (Apologies in advance if any images are rotated 90 degrees, I do not why this happens when I upload images to the system).

NB: The former owner of this keris from whom I acquired it bought it at a gun show in Brisbane, Australia, in the 80s or 90s; I'm told that the person who was selling it at that time casually mentioned the label but did not seem to attach much significance to it.

Any insight much appreciated!

[Rick]

The script is interesting indeed. If the entire ensemble has been together since it was made, then it is very old as Adm. Nelson died oct 21 1805.

Maybe the weapon was posthumously gifted, maybe not.

[David R]

Just a quick note, I have been told there were two Admiral Nelsons, one of them Admiral Lord Nelson and the other later in date not a lord. There are also a lot of Admiral Nelson pubs in the UK.

[Ian]

The British and Portuguese have a longstanding friendship and alliance, that has included mutual military assistance at various times, for several centuries. It would not be surprising that a resident of a Portuguese colony (most likely East Timor, Timor L'este) might choose to recognize a prominent British admiral.

I agree that the handwriting is similar to British writing in the 18th and 19th C. That seems consistent with the sword style, which may date to the first half of the 19th C as others have noted. However, the handwriting style is similar to some other European styles of that general era (such as French and Italian). There are differences in writing style between these countries, but the sample is really too small to say definitively where the writer may have been educated.

It is surprising, in some ways, that this piece surfaced in Brisbane, Australia. While Timor is quite close to the northern coast of Australia, notably the Northern Territory and Western Australia, it is some distance from Queensland. Perhaps it was a WWII find by an Australian soldier serving there.

I doubt that this item ever made it to Lord Nelson. As far as I recall, his distinctive service was in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. If the sword had been found in Great Britain, that would seem more persuasive. But turning up in Brisbane makes me think it never got out of the Lesser Sundas, where it ended up in the hands of an Australian who brought it back.

For various reasons it's an intriguing piece. Congratulations on finding such an enigmatic item for your research.

[adamb]

Thanks for these observations and opinions on the label. The former owner's wife had an interesting theory: that William Bligh acquired the sword from (Dutch) Timor during his post-“mutiny on the Bounty” sojourn in Kupang and then in England presented it as a gift to Nelson when he served under him.

I’m getting multispectral images taken of the label today and hopefully that will allow me to decipher some more of the writing, but it’s possible the script may be “…it was a present from the Gov of Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson”.

And a direct descendant of Nelson emigrated to the New South Wales colony in the early 1800s; if there really is a Nelson connection, perhaps this is how it ended up here (again, much of the legwork on this has been done already by the former owner’s wife, who very much enjoyed going down a few rabbit holes over this most interesting theory).

It’s possible of course that someone of this era (perhaps in the early NSW colony) simply wrote this false claim about Nelson to enhance the value of the keris. However, as a colleague pointed out to me, if one were to try and pass off a weapon as having belonged to Lord Nelson it would probably make sense to choose a royal navy sabre or some other type of recognisably English blade that Nelson might reasonably have had in his possession, rather than this fairly obscure type of keris from a remote part of island Southeast Asia.

[David]

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by David

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

Thanks David. Indeed if it can be demonstrated that a keris of this particular style/type could not possibly have existed in the late 18th century or early 19th when Nelson was still alive then the most likely explanation is that the label was fabricated in the distant past or is a clever modern forgery.

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

[RobT]

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

[adamb]

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hi RobT yes sorry I forgot to follow that up. It’s difficult to tell, as the plaited hemp wrapping on the hilt comes down almost to the bottom of the blade, but it looks like there is a separate metal band below the wrapping that is attached to the stirrup and that, from a technical point of view, the latter helps keep in place (along with the bindings). I’ll take a photo of this detail and post.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

Here is a close-up of the relevant feature, RobT.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

And another close up

[David]

Originally Posted by adamb

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

As i already stated, from my understanding of kris/kalis evolution i personally don't see a kris blade of this style and form existing in the time that Lord Nelson was alive. Others may have a different opinion. Kris/kalis certain did exist, but the blades were narrower and the tips pointier.

[RobT]

adamb,

Based on your photos, I strongly suspect that this is a one piece baca baca. If it were a two piece version, the brass strap looping around the stirrup would be visible on your front view photo. Your piece appears to be a variant that I haven’t seen before in that the strap that goes under the hilt wrap seems to have been forge welded to the blade stirrup. Since the tang is covered by the wood of the hilt, a weak magnet should confirm whether or not the strap is ferrous metal and hence one piece. I also agree with David that all the other features of the blade point toward it being made after Admiral Nelson. Offhand I can think of three possible scenarios: One, the label is a complete fabrication. Two, the tabel is authentic and was previously attached to another piece. Three (highly unlikely given the fit), the sheath originally belonged to another kris. Frankly for my part, given that this is a fine looking kris in good condition (with a sheath in good condition to boot), the authenticity of the label is of little importance.

Sincerely,
RobT

[xasterix]

I believe that the gangya may be a super-tightly fitted two-piece; I've encountered such pieces before- on visual, looks one-piece, but when I reset / apply heat gun, I would get a surprise when the tree adhesive bleeds out of a previously invisible gangya line.

The one-piece kris and kalis I've encountered tend to be longer, markedly less meticulous on the carving patterns for the katik and elephant figural, and have larger hilts due to having larger tangs.

I agree with RobT's possible mixed-up scabbard scenario. I believe this piece is legit pre-1900, it's just a toss-up regarding when, since I don't have any visibility on a provenanced similar piece that has a late 1700s attribution; I would be more confident to think of it as early-mid 1800s.

Admiral Lord Nelson died on 1805. Another possibility: the kris may have been made turn-of-century 1800s or up to before his death on 1805 (or a little beyond even), and intended as a gift to him. Communication was still very slow in that era; whoever bought it in PH, or secured it as a souvenir, may not have known of his death yet, hence the label.

[Maurice]

The reason why I asked about the yellow/gold colour dye, is that I have seen several old Borneo swords (parang ilangs, curved - and jimpul like swords) with the same golden colour painted on their scabbards.
I've never seen that on scabbards of other regions of the Indonesian archipellago. So maybe, just maybe, it could be that yours visited that area a long time ago too.....