Thoughts on Madura Kris

David · 20th November 2024, 04:50 PM

Well, i think this is a lovely keris. I agree with Detlef that the wrongko and pendok are Yogyakarta, but i am not so sure on the blade, which is a bit confusing to me. It does seem like a nicely crafted blade, but frankly the greneng seems a bit of a chaotic mess. I would think that if this were an older blade, considering the quality of the rest of the work, that they would have cut a more accurate greneng. When we turn the photo upside down for a proper reading orientation, the gandik does slant in rather sharply which an indication of a Madurese style. So could this be a karmardian blade made in Madura by a skilled smith who just didn't have the knowledge to cut a proper ron dha?
The ivory donoriko hilt is beautiful and has the colour of a caramel confection. You have identified the winged horse as "Jaran Semberani", but i believe Kuda Sembrani is how it is generally recognized. However, the winged horse of Madura that is usually associated with the Regional Emblem of Sumenup is known as Si Mega. Centainly these are related mythologies that stem from Arabic traditions.

"Another symbol we meet in Madurese heraldry is the winged horse (Pegasus in Western terminology). The winged horse is mentioned in the story of Joko tolè, son of the Putri (princess) Kuning, who was a grandchild of Pangeran Bukabu of Sumenep. Joko tolè and his brother Joko wedi had been conceived by way of a dream encounter between Putri Kuning and their father Adipoday. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The winged horse Si Mega is still the regional emblem of Sumenep. The whip, too, is one of Madura’s well known souvenirs, and the names Jokotole and Putri Kuning (Madurese: ‘Pottre Koneng’) can be found on the ferry boats which run between Surabaya and the Madurese port of Kamal.
The Indonesian winged horse is of Persian origin and is probably the emblem of the Master of the Horses (also known in the Roman Empire as the Magister Equitum). This would mean that a prince of Sumenep at a time held the office of Master of the Horses or that the Sumenep Dynasty held the office as a hereditary fief (within a Mataram or Dutch military organization)."

I hope the hilt has not been glued in place. It should be rotated 180 degrees for a proper orientation. I would need better shots of the mendhak to make any guessed on the stones. They could be real stones, but it's unlikely they would be diamonds and rubies. Possibly clear quartz and garnet. But glass is also not unlikely.

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2024, 07:12 PM

Nothing to add to any of that.

Kuda is Indonesian for "horse"

Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite)

David · 21st November 2024, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Nothing to add to any of that.

Kuda is Indonesian for "horse"

Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite)

Thanks for the language lesson. The Javanese language is both rich and complex with its hierarchal levels of speech. Beyond that, do you know whether Si Mega a name used specifically for the flying horse attached to the Regional Emblem of Sumenup or is it also correct to refer to this legendary creature as Kuda Sembrani? Si Mega is the name i most often encounter when it is associated with the Sumemup.

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2024, 10:49 PM

I don't know if we're dealing with Madurese or Javanese when we address the term "Si Mega".

In Javanese "si" is used as an honorific, or indicator that one is speaking to or with a person with whom one is on close terms, an intimate relationship, not necessarily in a sexual sense.

In Javanese "mega" means "cloud" in literary usage.

So Si Mega is a flying horse?

I believe we might be able to see the relationship there.

As to what is correct, I think that would probably be situational. I am not familiar with the Madurese language, nor do I have an in depth understanding of Madurese mores.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2024, 11:06 AM

This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day.

It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian.

"Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship.

So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual.

There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong.

The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way.

As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI.

So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy.

Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

David · 23rd November 2024, 03:24 PM

All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy.

https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm

https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html

https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx

https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

G. Mansfield · 23rd November 2024, 03:52 PM

Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones.

Geoffrey

20th November 2024, 04:50 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, i think this is a lovely keris. I agree with Detlef that the wrongko and pendok are Yogyakarta, but i am not so sure on the blade, which is a bit confusing to me. It does seem like a nicely crafted blade, but frankly the greneng seems a bit of a chaotic mess. I would think that if this were an older blade, considering the quality of the rest of the work, that they would have cut a more accurate greneng. When we turn the photo upside down for a proper reading orientation, the gandik does slant in rather sharply which an indication of a Madurese style. So could this be a karmardian blade made in Madura by a skilled smith who just didn't have the knowledge to cut a proper ron dha? The ivory donoriko hilt is beautiful and has the colour of a caramel confection. You have identified the winged horse as "Jaran Semberani", but i believe Kuda Sembrani is how it is generally recognized. However, the winged horse of Madura that is usually associated with the Regional Emblem of Sumenup is known as Si Mega. Centainly these are related mythologies that stem from Arabic traditions. "Another symbol we meet in Madurese heraldry is the winged horse (Pegasus in Western terminology). The winged horse is mentioned in the story of Joko tolè, son of the Putri (princess) Kuning, who was a grandchild of Pangeran Bukabu of Sumenep. Joko tolè and his brother Joko wedi had been conceived by way of a dream encounter between Putri Kuning and their father Adipoday. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The winged horse Si Mega is still the regional emblem of Sumenep. The whip, too, is one of Madura’s well known souvenirs, and the names Jokotole and Putri Kuning (Madurese: ‘Pottre Koneng’) can be found on the ferry boats which run between Surabaya and the Madurese port of Kamal. The Indonesian winged horse is of Persian origin and is probably the emblem of the Master of the Horses (also known in the Roman Empire as the Magister Equitum). This would mean that a prince of Sumenep at a time held the office of Master of the Horses or that the Sumenep Dynasty held the office as a hereditary fief (within a Mataram or Dutch military organization)." I hope the hilt has not been glued in place. It should be rotated 180 degrees for a proper orientation. I would need better shots of the mendhak to make any guessed on the stones. They could be real stones, but it's unlikely they would be diamonds and rubies. Possibly clear quartz and garnet. But glass is also not unlikely. Attached Images

20th November 2024, 07:12 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Nothing to add to any of that. Kuda is Indonesian for "horse" Jaran is Javanese (ngoko - low level) for "horse", other words for "horse" in Javanese are "kapal" (krama - high level) & "titihan" (krama inggil- very elevated, it actually means "that which is ridden", so by being indirect or obscure we are being polite) Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th November 2024 at 07:29 PM.

23rd November 2024, 03:52 PM	#7
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Colorado Posts: 91	Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I have updated my notes on this particular piece in the catalog. Luckily the hilt is not glued. It has a fabric placed underneath it. I gave it a gentle tight twist to rotate it 180 degrees to its proper orientation without trouble. I also took close ups of the mendok in order to try to get a better vierw of the stones. Geoffrey Attached Images

21st November 2024, 10:49 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	I don't know if we're dealing with Madurese or Javanese when we address the term "Si Mega". In Javanese "si" is used as an honorific, or indicator that one is speaking to or with a person with whom one is on close terms, an intimate relationship, not necessarily in a sexual sense. In Javanese "mega" means "cloud" in literary usage. So Si Mega is a flying horse? I believe we might be able to see the relationship there. As to what is correct, I think that would probably be situational. I am not familiar with the Madurese language, nor do I have an in depth understanding of Madurese mores.

23rd November 2024, 11:06 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	This reference to "Si Mega", has been itching in the back of my mind all day. It comes down to what language the term is used in. I said "Javanese or Madurese", but I forgot about Indonesian. "Si" exists in BI too, and has a similar meaning to the Javanese meaning, ie, it involves a close relationship. So really, to use "Si Mega" in either Javanese or BI as a usual form of reference does to me seem a bit unusual. There is another word "ki" which is used as a term of respect, usually applied to religious scholars but can be used for others who deserve respect. I would have thought that"Ki Mega" might have been more appropriate than "Si Mega" if we were using either BI or Javanese --- but then again, I'm not a native speaker of either language, so it is easy to be wrong. The word "ki" is a contraction of kiai (kyai), both words are used in the same way. As it happens I have a distant relative who was born & grew up in Madura, she moved to Jawa when she was married, but she is Madurese at heart. I rang her earlier today & ran my ideas about si & ki & kiai past her. She tells me that in Madura the word "si" is used in the same way that the word "ki" is used in Javanese & BI. So when somebody refers to "Si Mega" that person is actually using an honorific of respect, it is not a use of an honorific inferring intimacy. Using language correctly has a lot of traps & lack of fluency in any language can cause misunderstandings, sometimes regrettable.

23rd November 2024, 03:24 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	All i know is that it is the name i have encountered on many occasions, though i cannot speak to its accuracy. https://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoMadura.htm https://www.eastjava.com/books/madura/html/hisleg.html https://www.taman-indonesia.nl/2022-...jyNM6T_k6gTsNx https://jawatimuran-wordpress-com.tr...n&_x_tr_pto=sc