Revolutionary War to Federalist period cutlass

M ELEY · 1st November 2024, 05:17 PM

I guess what I'm saying is, these types are not to everyone's taste and I get that. As a collector of maritime items, though. these really speak to me. They are not shiny and clean. No officer or captain probably handled them. They are simple tools of war probably stored in barrels rolled up onto the deck during raids or defence or perhaps stored in a rack. They are cumbersome, deadly and I wouldn't want to get struck in the skull with one, that's for sure!

Here's a site with a few examples of American Revolutionary War types of colonial manufacture. They are almost folk-art in a way!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...?auctionid=560

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2024, 10:39 PM

Capn, thank you for posting this remarkable example of the very kinds on weapons which actually SAW use in colonial, rural and as noted often maritime contexts. They were indeed typically 'ersatz' forms made in the manner of other contemporary forms, but with local blacksmiths and iron workers fabricating them in their own perspectives.

The stark clipped point I have seen referred to as 'inverted clip' and while often seen on machetes (many Caribbean forms) they seem to have been adopted from the exotic forms of swords termed colorfully 'scimitars'.

As you note, the canted hilt feature seems like it may have been intended to direct force of slashing or chopping cut, which was notably reasonable for a machete.....here noting that the machete was often a weapon as well as tool.

It would be great to see other examples of these types of sword, which are in my view, in accord with the Capn, anything BUT 'ugly ducklings'....they are very much folk art reflecting the resilience and rugged character of those who used them.

Page from Burton 1884 reflecting the types of swords whose influence off trade vessels might have influenced the profiling of this blade.

PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade!
'

M ELEY · 2nd November 2024, 03:08 AM

Thanks for coming in on this one, Jim. I know we talked at length about this sword and others with the clipped point. Gilkerson includes in his 'Boarders Away I: With Steel' the so-called Baltimore pattern of cutlass from the first decade of the 19th with such a clipped point.

You also brought up the cantering of the blade on some of these. I've always wondered if it were for the chopping effect and, as you pointed out, machetes often have this feature.

And thanks for the compliment about the display!

kronckew · 2nd November 2024, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade!
'

145: hinese: Chinese whotsit?

146: Turkish 'scimitar' - They did not use anything like that, in spite of Indiana Jones. Renaissance painters assumed Christians used curved swords like that. They didn't. European falchions sometimes did tho.

147: Dao - Actually a nepali 'Kora', sharp on the inside of the curve.

148: Sailor's Cutlass: What they heck is that?

19c Museums & authors were not the most accurate entities.

M ELEY · 3rd November 2024, 01:31 AM

Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World'

Jim's point was (dismissing the titles from that page) that the clipped point was certainly fashionable in Europe and Asia long before here in the colonies. Naval weapons did have a history of following fashion also, with many of the naval dirks and swords of the Quasi-War period and Napoleonic period taking on Arabic/Egyptian forms after Bonaparte's Egyptian Campaign . Likewise, the early U.S. Marine swords took on the shamshir pattern after the Barbary Wars. I'm happy to have a clipped point in the collection now!

kronckew · 3rd November 2024, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World'

...

mY Favourite 'cutlass' is the Dutch klewang, used originally to arm native police in Dutch East Indies for jungle use where European swords/sabres were too long.

It was used extensively in WW2 as a 'Naval Cutlass' by the Germans, and the Americans, copied directly and exactly from the original Dutch Hembrug made ones. Mine has a Solingen blade and was supposedly liberated from a German S-Boot by a Brit in an E-Boat. They have clip point too!

Even the Japanese used captured ones, guards cut down and blades shortened, known now as Hei-ho.

The last recorded use of the US Naval boarding cutlass was during the Altmark Incident on February 16, 1940

M ELEY · 3rd November 2024, 11:32 PM

Yes! There's the clip point so popular on these cutlass types. Indeed, the Dutch klewang, modeled after it's Indonesian namesake, is a perfect example of how both Eastern and Asian patterns had an effect on European/American edged weapons. Nice sword, my friend!

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2024, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

145: hinese: Chinese whotsit?

146: Turkish 'scimitar' - They did not use anything like that, in spite of Indiana Jones. Renaissance painters assumed Christians used curved swords like that. They didn't. European falchions sometimes did tho.

147: Dao - Actually a nepali 'Kora', sharp on the inside of the curve.

148: Sailor's Cutlass: What they heck is that?

OH NO!!! you mean Burtons book is not Gospel!!!!
and all the Victorian romantics describing flashing SCIMITARS are wrong?

LOL!

19c Museums & authors were not the most accurate entities.

What? museums and authors make missteaks?????

The point was, this type of rebated blade WAS around in those times, and sailors and travelers in and out of exotic ports were known to acquire souvenirs, and were not exactly arms 'scholars'. There was also the case where weapons from many places were in use in non indigenous contexts, so assumptions sometimes happened.

I could write a book on these kinds of gaffes, and I've always particularly loved the term 'scimitar'......used in 'authoritative' description of Eastern sabers (?).

M ELEY · 4th November 2024, 02:19 PM

Hey, I think I figured out what we are looking at in that museum chart. Post # 4, Figure 148, the 'sailor's sword', is hinged. This was probably a sketch of a very large navaja 'knife', controversially believed to be carried by sailors and thus misidentified as a sailor's sword. I've had whole threads I've started and argued about concerning sailors carrying jack knives, but I won't digress right now (I just bought my first navaja and will post it soon with all the arguments pro and nay for sea use!

. Of course, it could be something else...

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2024, 08:44 PM

You have an amazing eye Capn! I hadnt noticed that! Indeed a navaja is quite possible though I had not seen them with the clipped blade. However the name I believe means razor, which was a folding blade item.
These kept getting larger until they became the size of dirks and even larger. With the ratchet lock on the blade, they went from pocket knife to short sword/dirk instantly.
Colloquially known as 'carracha' for the click of the ratchet lock, they were the 'baratero weapon', sailors knife fighting weapon.
Part of New Orleans French Quarter, the lair of pirate Jean Lafitte was known as Barateria.

M ELEY · 5th November 2024, 01:12 AM

Thank you for this information, Jim. I know we had a very long and contested thread I started back in 2012 concerning folding knives at sea. As I recall, we were split down the middle. I, for one, still believe smaller folding knives did see service perhaps on merchant ships and undoubtedly privateer/pirate vessels. I plan on posting my new 'little folder' soon. I just think there is way too much references and incidences involving such items, including 'baratero' weapons (gotta love good ole Jean Lafitte!).

1st November 2024, 05:17 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	More photos... I guess what I'm saying is, these types are not to everyone's taste and I get that. As a collector of maritime items, though. these really speak to me. They are not shiny and clean. No officer or captain probably handled them. They are simple tools of war probably stored in barrels rolled up onto the deck during raids or defence or perhaps stored in a rack. They are cumbersome, deadly and I wouldn't want to get struck in the skull with one, that's for sure! Here's a site with a few examples of American Revolutionary War types of colonial manufacture. They are almost folk-art in a way! https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...?auctionid=560 Attached Images

1st November 2024, 10:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Capn, thank you for posting this remarkable example of the very kinds on weapons which actually SAW use in colonial, rural and as noted often maritime contexts. They were indeed typically 'ersatz' forms made in the manner of other contemporary forms, but with local blacksmiths and iron workers fabricating them in their own perspectives. The stark clipped point I have seen referred to as 'inverted clip' and while often seen on machetes (many Caribbean forms) they seem to have been adopted from the exotic forms of swords termed colorfully 'scimitars'. As you note, the canted hilt feature seems like it may have been intended to direct force of slashing or chopping cut, which was notably reasonable for a machete.....here noting that the machete was often a weapon as well as tool. It would be great to see other examples of these types of sword, which are in my view, in accord with the Capn, anything BUT 'ugly ducklings'....they are very much folk art reflecting the resilience and rugged character of those who used them. Page from Burton 1884 reflecting the types of swords whose influence off trade vessels might have influenced the profiling of this blade. PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade! ' Attached Images

3rd November 2024, 01:31 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Clipped points... Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World' Jim's point was (dismissing the titles from that page) that the clipped point was certainly fashionable in Europe and Asia long before here in the colonies. Naval weapons did have a history of following fashion also, with many of the naval dirks and swords of the Quasi-War period and Napoleonic period taking on Arabic/Egyptian forms after Bonaparte's Egyptian Campaign . Likewise, the early U.S. Marine swords took on the shamshir pattern after the Barbary Wars. I'm happy to have a clipped point in the collection now!

4th November 2024, 02:19 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hey, I think I figured out what we are looking at in that museum chart. Post # 4, Figure 148, the 'sailor's sword', is hinged. This was probably a sketch of a very large navaja 'knife', controversially believed to be carried by sailors and thus misidentified as a sailor's sword. I've had whole threads I've started and argued about concerning sailors carrying jack knives, but I won't digress right now (I just bought my first navaja and will post it soon with all the arguments pro and nay for sea use!. Of course, it could be something else...

2nd November 2024, 03:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for coming in on this one, Jim. I know we talked at length about this sword and others with the clipped point. Gilkerson includes in his 'Boarders Away I: With Steel' the so-called Baltimore pattern of cutlass from the first decade of the 19th with such a clipped point. You also brought up the cantering of the blade on some of these. I've always wondered if it were for the chopping effect and, as you pointed out, machetes often have this feature. And thanks for the compliment about the display!

3rd November 2024, 11:32 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes! There's the clip point so popular on these cutlass types. Indeed, the Dutch klewang, modeled after it's Indonesian namesake, is a perfect example of how both Eastern and Asian patterns had an effect on European/American edged weapons. Nice sword, my friend!

4th November 2024, 08:44 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	You have an amazing eye Capn! I hadnt noticed that! Indeed a navaja is quite possible though I had not seen them with the clipped blade. However the name I believe means razor, which was a folding blade item. These kept getting larger until they became the size of dirks and even larger. With the ratchet lock on the blade, they went from pocket knife to short sword/dirk instantly. Colloquially known as 'carracha' for the click of the ratchet lock, they were the 'baratero weapon', sailors knife fighting weapon. Part of New Orleans French Quarter, the lair of pirate Jean Lafitte was known as Barateria.

5th November 2024, 01:12 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you for this information, Jim. I know we had a very long and contested thread I started back in 2012 concerning folding knives at sea. As I recall, we were split down the middle. I, for one, still believe smaller folding knives did see service perhaps on merchant ships and undoubtedly privateer/pirate vessels. I plan on posting my new 'little folder' soon. I just think there is way too much references and incidences involving such items, including 'baratero' weapons (gotta love good ole Jean Lafitte!).