Keris Majapahit

nechesh · 15th July 2006, 07:57 AM

Pak Mudi, translation of language is often inadequate. I have found translations for pusaka as "heirloom" and "legacy". You suggest that all it means is to "leave behind". None of these express the complexity of pusaka. The Western way of understanding this would be to just except it as "heirloom" as we understand it here in our culture. I believe pusaka implies more than that.
I think perhaps you are misunderstanding my use of the word "power". This is not to say that every keris pusaka has magickal powers, that it can do tricks, fly through the air or vanquish ones enemies. Power can be much more subtle than that. When any object is passed down from one generation to another it must accumulate the power generated by that kinship group, it's history, its aspirations and desires, its will to survive and prosper. To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. On the royal class level this power is perhap more tangible. We are now dealing with affairs of state, not just family. Of course a keris isn't just ANY object. It is created with great intention and treated with great respect, fed with oils and incense and prayers in the great hope of seeing these intentions come to pass. All of this is passed along with the keris pusaka from generation to generation with a general concensus within that particular kinship group that the keris pusaka holds this history and this energy. That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER.
I am sorry if i explained this inadequately before, but i hope you see my point clearer now.

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 08:39 AM

Pak Nechesh

Your words well done. Like music to me! I agree with all you say until you say

That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER.

It is not power that go from one generation to next. It is influence, reason, knowledge, enlightement and understanding that pass. Even old man working sawah can have this. If you say this is power then OK I understand. For me power mean control over other people. I think maybe we say same thing different way.

Thank you for what you write. I copy it and keep it. You say

To inherit these things is to be empowered by them.

Yes. That is true. Pusaka is something from history that we can see, touch and know to be alsi. With pusaka history is more than story. Pusaka make history live. Thank you again for so good words to say about pusaka.

Thank you also to call me friend. You are kind polite and patient. I think you lucky to have keris. I think keris with you happy also!

Mark · 15th July 2006, 02:58 PM

Keris threads are alway very difficult to moderate, because of the inseparable mystic element.

However, it is time for me to say clearly - this discussion is drifting too far off-topic. The debate about what is and what is not a pusaka, what can and cannot be done with a pusaka, heritage, religious preference, etc., etc., etc., is not only something that has been gone through uncountable times on the forum, but one that has consistently ended up in a flame war and/or bad feelings. No one on this forum should have to feel that they must defend their cultural or religious beliefs. Enough.

If anyone wants to learn about pusaka, search the word on the forum. You will get more than you can read.

VANDOO · 15th July 2006, 04:15 PM

I JUST THOUGHT OF A QUESTION WHICH HAS BEEN MISSED PERHAPS

IF A MAN HAS SEVERAL SONS HE WOULD PASS THE BEST PUSAKA ON TO A SON. I WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN HONOR TO THE SON CHOSEN. IS THERE A TRADITION THAT SAYS WHO GETS THE BEST FAMILY KERIS OR IS THE OWNER FREE TO CHOOSE. OFTEN IN OUR SOCIETY THINGS GO TO THE FIRST BORN SON BUT A FATHER IN ANY COUNTRY WOULD SURELY PREFER TO GIVE HIS PUSAKA TO THE ONE WHO WOULD TREASURE IT AND TAKE GOOD CARE OF IT BEST AND KEEP IT IN THE FAMILY. TO GIVE IT TO A WAYWARD SON WHO WOULD ONLY SELL IT OR NEGLECT IT EVEN IF IT WAS TRADITION WOULD BE A HARD THING TO DO. I SUSPECT THAT WHO GETS THE BEST KERIS MAY SOMETIMES CAUSE HARD FEELINGS IN FAMILYS FROM TIME TO TIME AS PEOPLE OFTEN SAY HE WAS THE FAVORITE. BUT THERE IS USUALLY A GOOD REASON ONE PERSON IS A FAVORITE AND BEING OPENLY JEALOUS WILL EARN A PERSON LESS FAVOR STILL, AFTER ALL IT IS THE OWNERS CHOICE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED.

I GUESS THAT OWNING THE BEST KERIS PUSAKA WOULD NOT GIVE YOU ANY POWER IN THE FAMILY GROUP. BUT OFTEN IT WOULD BE PASSED DOWN FROM THE PRESENT HEAD OF THE FAMILY TO THE ONE WHO WOULD BE BEST ABLE TO BECOME THE NEW HEAD OF THE FAMILY SO COULD BE CONSIDERED SYMBOLIC OF THE PASSING OF POWER. THE ABILITY OF A FAMILY TO PRODUCE, CHOOSE AND FOLLOW GOOD LEADERS IS WHAT USUALLY DETERMINES A FAMILYS PROSPERITY ESPECIALLY IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE COMPETICIAN IS VERY TOUGH.

BSMStar · 27th July 2006, 05:42 PM

Mudi,

Thank you for sharing these fascinating keris!

Can you give us an idea of the size or lengths of these four keris?

Can you tell me anything about this one?

Dajak · 27th July 2006, 05:51 PM

Hi here a different type
I was told that this type was also found under a
stupa from the burobudur tempel on java
and could be from 900

This was told to me by mister Polak (Importent art dealer in The Netherlands)
in an show on TV in 1982 and try to buy it from me .

And schowing this to someone that came from Indonesia in Den Haag (Netherlands) he stil could feel the power that s in this chunderik also Ruud Greve like this one a lot

Mudi · 29th July 2006, 03:03 AM

BSMStar the short one keris A is 14 cm and the long one keris D is 21.5 cm. Your keris is keris Majapahit but not sure how old. I never see with nickel pamor if really old. Good to look keris.

Pak Dajak your piece very nice. I never see like this before. Hope that Pak Maisey make comment. You lucky to have.

Green · 28th November 2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST THOUGHT OF A QUESTION WHICH HAS BEEN MISSED PERHAPS

IF A MAN HAS SEVERAL SONS HE WOULD PASS THE BEST PUSAKA ON TO A SON. I WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN HONOR TO THE SON CHOSEN. IS THERE A TRADITION THAT SAYS WHO GETS THE BEST FAMILY KERIS OR IS THE OWNER FREE TO CHOOSE. OFTEN IN OUR SOCIETY THINGS GO TO THE FIRST BORN SON BUT A FATHER IN ANY COUNTRY WOULD SURELY PREFER TO GIVE HIS PUSAKA TO THE ONE WHO WOULD TREASURE IT AND TAKE GOOD CARE OF IT BEST AND KEEP IT IN THE FAMILY.

in my case, my grandfather had one fine keris (anak alang) pusaka with white "kekmo" jawa demam hilt.When he passed away many years ago, it was lying around the house with nobody interested in it , so I simply took it.

and now it is with me ever since and it started my interest to collect keris because of it. And oh, I'm the eldest in the family so I guess I have the first right to choose.

David · 30th November 2015, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

in my case, my grandfather had one fine keris (anak alang) pusaka with white "kekmo" jawa demam hilt.When he passed away many years ago, it was lying around the house with nobody interested in it , so I simply took it.

and now it is with me ever since and it started my interest to collect keris because of it. And oh, I'm the eldest in the family so I guess I have the first right to choose.

I believe Green has pointed to a sad truth that currently exists within the culture, that fewer and fewer of the next generation are truly interested in keris as a cultural icon and traditional pusaka. I am happy to hear that this keris of your grandfather was able to ignite your own interest Green.

Green · 1st December 2015, 01:44 AM

David;

It's very true that in case of Malaysia at least, the interest is very very small in terms of numbers, but on the bright side, this small but very enthusiastic group of keris lovers and collectors keep the tradition . Every so often there are keris festivals and competitions to keep the interest going and there are thankfully still a few keris makers around.

Ironically, I kinda like it this way rather than having mass mania where keris will be in danger of becoming commercialised and keris makers taking opportunity to make quick bucks by making keris with dodgy workmaship.

27th July 2006, 05:42 PM	#5
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you for sharing! Mudi, Thank you for sharing these fascinating keris! Can you give us an idea of the size or lengths of these four keris? Can you tell me anything about this one? Attached Images

27th July 2006, 05:51 PM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi here a different type I was told that this type was also found under a stupa from the burobudur tempel on java and could be from 900 This was told to me by mister Polak (Importent art dealer in The Netherlands) in an show on TV in 1982 and try to buy it from me . And schowing this to someone that came from Indonesia in Den Haag (Netherlands) he stil could feel the power that s in this chunderik also Ruud Greve like this one a lot Attached Images

15th July 2006, 07:57 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, translation of language is often inadequate. I have found translations for pusaka as "heirloom" and "legacy". You suggest that all it means is to "leave behind". None of these express the complexity of pusaka. The Western way of understanding this would be to just except it as "heirloom" as we understand it here in our culture. I believe pusaka implies more than that. I think perhaps you are misunderstanding my use of the word "power". This is not to say that every keris pusaka has magickal powers, that it can do tricks, fly through the air or vanquish ones enemies. Power can be much more subtle than that. When any object is passed down from one generation to another it must accumulate the power generated by that kinship group, it's history, its aspirations and desires, its will to survive and prosper. To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. On the royal class level this power is perhap more tangible. We are now dealing with affairs of state, not just family. Of course a keris isn't just ANY object. It is created with great intention and treated with great respect, fed with oils and incense and prayers in the great hope of seeing these intentions come to pass. All of this is passed along with the keris pusaka from generation to generation with a general concensus within that particular kinship group that the keris pusaka holds this history and this energy. That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER. I am sorry if i explained this inadequately before, but i hope you see my point clearer now.

15th July 2006, 08:39 AM	#2
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pak Nechesh Your words well done. Like music to me! I agree with all you say until you say That, my friend, when passed from one generation to the next, is a transferrence of POWER. It is not power that go from one generation to next. It is influence, reason, knowledge, enlightement and understanding that pass. Even old man working sawah can have this. If you say this is power then OK I understand. For me power mean control over other people. I think maybe we say same thing different way. Thank you for what you write. I copy it and keep it. You say To inherit these things is to be empowered by them. Yes. That is true. Pusaka is something from history that we can see, touch and know to be alsi. With pusaka history is more than story. Pusaka make history live. Thank you again for so good words to say about pusaka. Thank you also to call me friend. You are kind polite and patient. I think you lucky to have keris. I think keris with you happy also!

15th July 2006, 02:58 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Keris threads are alway very difficult to moderate, because of the inseparable mystic element. However, it is time for me to say clearly - this discussion is drifting too far off-topic. The debate about what is and what is not a pusaka, what can and cannot be done with a pusaka, heritage, religious preference, etc., etc., etc., is not only something that has been gone through uncountable times on the forum, but one that has consistently ended up in a flame war and/or bad feelings. No one on this forum should have to feel that they must defend their cultural or religious beliefs. Enough. If anyone wants to learn about pusaka, search the word on the forum. You will get more than you can read.

15th July 2006, 04:15 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I JUST THOUGHT OF A QUESTION WHICH HAS BEEN MISSED PERHAPS IF A MAN HAS SEVERAL SONS HE WOULD PASS THE BEST PUSAKA ON TO A SON. I WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN HONOR TO THE SON CHOSEN. IS THERE A TRADITION THAT SAYS WHO GETS THE BEST FAMILY KERIS OR IS THE OWNER FREE TO CHOOSE. OFTEN IN OUR SOCIETY THINGS GO TO THE FIRST BORN SON BUT A FATHER IN ANY COUNTRY WOULD SURELY PREFER TO GIVE HIS PUSAKA TO THE ONE WHO WOULD TREASURE IT AND TAKE GOOD CARE OF IT BEST AND KEEP IT IN THE FAMILY. TO GIVE IT TO A WAYWARD SON WHO WOULD ONLY SELL IT OR NEGLECT IT EVEN IF IT WAS TRADITION WOULD BE A HARD THING TO DO. I SUSPECT THAT WHO GETS THE BEST KERIS MAY SOMETIMES CAUSE HARD FEELINGS IN FAMILYS FROM TIME TO TIME AS PEOPLE OFTEN SAY HE WAS THE FAVORITE. BUT THERE IS USUALLY A GOOD REASON ONE PERSON IS A FAVORITE AND BEING OPENLY JEALOUS WILL EARN A PERSON LESS FAVOR STILL, AFTER ALL IT IS THE OWNERS CHOICE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED. I GUESS THAT OWNING THE BEST KERIS PUSAKA WOULD NOT GIVE YOU ANY POWER IN THE FAMILY GROUP. BUT OFTEN IT WOULD BE PASSED DOWN FROM THE PRESENT HEAD OF THE FAMILY TO THE ONE WHO WOULD BE BEST ABLE TO BECOME THE NEW HEAD OF THE FAMILY SO COULD BE CONSIDERED SYMBOLIC OF THE PASSING OF POWER. THE ABILITY OF A FAMILY TO PRODUCE, CHOOSE AND FOLLOW GOOD LEADERS IS WHAT USUALLY DETERMINES A FAMILYS PROSPERITY ESPECIALLY IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE COMPETICIAN IS VERY TOUGH.

29th July 2006, 03:03 AM	#7
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	BSMStar the short one keris A is 14 cm and the long one keris D is 21.5 cm. Your keris is keris Majapahit but not sure how old. I never see with nickel pamor if really old. Good to look keris. Pak Dajak your piece very nice. I never see like this before. Hope that Pak Maisey make comment. You lucky to have.

1st December 2015, 01:44 AM	#10
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	David; It's very true that in case of Malaysia at least, the interest is very very small in terms of numbers, but on the bright side, this small but very enthusiastic group of keris lovers and collectors keep the tradition . Every so often there are keris festivals and competitions to keep the interest going and there are thankfully still a few keris makers around. Ironically, I kinda like it this way rather than having mass mania where keris will be in danger of becoming commercialised and keris makers taking opportunity to make quick bucks by making keris with dodgy workmaship.