Side sword with Victorian chiseled hilt?

[Interested Party]

Somewhere in Norman recently I read about a style of 17th century English hilts with joints like bamboo. If memory serves p. 373, the section on chiseled hilts. I will double check later after work if no one else posts.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Somewhere in Norman recently I read about a style of 17th century English hilts with joints like bamboo. If memory serves p. 373, the section on chiseled hilts. I will double check later after work if no one else posts.

Interesting. My mind immediately went to finger bones but I see the bamboo now.

[midelburgo]

Some Victorian copies weight much more than what they should. Also bad balance. That is a start.

[ulfberth]

The blade is 17th century , The pommel is composite and does not belong to this type of rapier neither does it fit the grip its a shiavona type of pommel.
For the guard i lean towords 19th c based on these few pics ,more detailed pictures are needed to be sure , the back of the guard is missing it was probably the same guard ring is the front, altough this type of guard existed in the 17th c this one is pretty rougly made the original ones were usualy more refined .
kind regards
Ulfberth

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

The blade is 17th century , The pommel is composite and does not belong to this type of rapier neither does it fit the grip its a shiavona type of pommel.
For the guard i lean towords 19th c based on these few pics ,more detailed pictures are needed to be sure , the back of the guard is missing it was probably the same guard ring is the front, altough this type of guard existed in the 17th c this one is pretty rougly made the original ones were usualy more refined .
kind regards
Ulfberth

I think that's a good catch Ulfberth, it does look like the other half of the guard may have snapped off and someone may have sanded down the fracture surface. After looking at it more the pommel does look straight off a schiavona. Luckily the blade itself looks fantastic and I'm super happy with it. I'll have more details coming when I have the swords in hand.

Here is the rest of what is coming to me from that estate:

[ulfberth]

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

Its always so good to see your entries here!!!! Your astute eye catches all, and your assessments confident and IMO conclusive.

The cuphilt is amazing, I've really never seen one with a colichemarde blade. In my view, with the advent of the colichemarde blade in the period you note it is well established this type blade became de riguer in France and England.
It is remarkably rare to see one on a Spanish cup hilt as these were attuned more to the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) primarily, which was markedly different than the French technigues.

The generally held theory on the colichemarde was that it provided a stronger upper blade section for the parry, with the French style of fencing which concentrated on much more dynamic swordplay and the lighter and faster small sword. The thin distal end of the blade of course afforded the thrust of the rapier. Allegedly the colichemarde blade fell out of favor by mid 18th in the civilian sector but seems to have been held traditionally longer by the military with their strong sense of tradition.

On this interesting rapier in the OP, am I mistaken or could the dual markings on the blade be spuriously applied renditions of those of the house of Missaglia in Milan? One of the variations of their mark seems to be a 'tailed' cross ("Scottish Swords from the Battlefield of Culloden", Lord Archibald Campbell, repr. Andrew Mowbray, 1971, p.48).
With the unusual 'running wolf', this blade seems certainly a 17th century Solingen product, but unusual to see the Missaglia (?) mark. It seems of course that Solingen favored Spanish names and punzones, but with Milan being in Spains provincial sphere, many Spanish arms and armor had these connections.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

these 3 are all good , the schiavona looks complete and undamaged, the North Italian naval sabre 17th c has a nice blade, its pretty rare and looks nicer than most, the cup hilt is probably late 17th or early 18th c it has a nice colichemarde blade, more details of the gaurds , grips pommel and blade would be nice, these seem to be pure and unaltered items.
Here is a picture of a similar rapier as the one you bought, this particular one has the two guard rings intact and has the original pommel, it was sold at auction 11 years ago and described as 19th c but it was absolute completely all original.
kind regards
Ulfberth

It's great to hear that there were some legitimate diamonds in the rough that I found. The rapier was under a literal pile of "made in Toledo, Spain" souvenir swords. I'll have everything in hand by Wednesday and can send more detailed pictures then. I forgot that I had two additional images of both the cup hilt rapier and Italian saber.




I was honestly worried about the blade decoration on the saber at first. It looked too much like arsenal tulwar decoration. But I later found multiple examples with similarly janky designs carved into them. The pommel cap is interesting. I associate that style much more with 18th and 19th century sabers.

On another note, do y'all have any idea if there is any significance behind these shapes on the rapier grip and quillons? Just the fact that it is repeated multiple times in different spots made me wonder if it was associated with anything. Or it's just a metal design that looks like a pretzel with zero special meaning.





Thank you again to Ulfberth and Mr. McDougall, y'all have a level of knowledge and desire to share that knowledge that new comers to the field can aspire to, myself included.