Suggestions for care and respect of Javanese and Balinese Keris.

Lei Shen Dao · 13th July 2006, 01:00 AM

Bill

http://home.wanadoo.nl/javas/Kalende.../05mei2006.htm

Above is the adress of a Javanese calendar.
The "good" days to offer incense to your keris are the "kliwon" days. Every kliwon follows every five days. The "kemis kliwon" is the best day for this offerring. The kliwons and especially the kemis kliwon, are the days where the spirits are more close to humans and to earth, a kind of "opening" to the spiritual dimension. Offerring is good to be done late at night until 12 at midnight.

Avoid the light when the keris is out of the seath, especially the sun. Spirits are yin endities and they don't love yang. Cemetaries aren't good places to have your keris with you. Don't have it near a woman in her menstrual days (period days) or when you make love. Be quiet and no noise too. When you unseath it drew the sheath not the blade, when you put it back do the opposite and move the blade to the seath calmly. Don't use too much oil. Some drops of it every 3-4 months are ok.
Try to communicate with it with your heart and your mind, think about it, take care of it. It will understand

even if you don't use Indonesian language.

Of course there are other thinks too.
All these concerns only the "live" keris.

But...
Not every old keris has a spirit in it. There aren't too many keris/tombak with power and spirit left. There are some, but not too many as most people think. A keris may be very old but the spirit may have left the blade if the owner didn't took care of it. Of course, as many times the members here said, every old keris most of the times has it's "history" but most of the times this a "selling truth" not the truth itself. You have to be a very sensitive individual to sense it, or to have someone with the abillity to do it. Many claims to be experts in this, few are the "real thing".
You may give a lot of money for example for an old "huddan mas" pamor (to help you make a fortune) that is quite rare to find a reall one nowdays and to be an empty sell, and you may pay 300 or 400 us dollars or euro (or even less) for a "wos wutah" and you may be lucky and have a "live" blade.
If you have jodoh with a keris, with God's help it will find the way to you

Take care.

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2006, 01:22 AM

It is indeed true that when discussion strays into the areas of politics and religion, it strays into areas that can be sensitive, and there is potential to give offence, which can lead to unpleasantness.

A brief revue of all that has been written above will clearly demonstrate that nobody who has yet commented on religion in this thread has transgressed in even the slightest degree.

May this remain so.

Please allow me to be very clear about this:-
In my earlier post I was not putting forward personal opinion.

The matters of the nature of animism, and of the nature of Islam in Jawa, are not matters in which personal opinion can carry very much weight.

The nature of Islam in Jawa has been well documented by both Indonesian and foreign anthropologists.

Where an individual`s opinion is at variance with the body of academic evidence, that opinion may be respected as the individual's right, but it cannot be given any credence.

The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Indonesia are not yet ready to implement Islamic laws. They are still in the teaching phase (dakwah), and not yet at the stage of approval (ijabah).

If we look at Islam at the time of Prophet Muhammed, when he was in Mecca he spent his time there teaching. He tried to spread the faith amongst the people and to have them submit to and worship one God. At this time the society in Mecca was unruly and disordered. The Prophet tried to bring order to this chaos, but the laws of Islam had not yet been set down.In fact, at this time the Prophet did not forbid the drinking of alchohol. People were still permitted to drink alchohol, but they were not permitted to be drunk when they were praying. (Al Qur'an 4.42).

However, after the flight to Medinah, Muhammed set down the laws, and made regulations that became known as the "Medinah Charter", which set forth rules of government, and importantly gave Christians and Jews the right to practice their own religions.

Over time, the fabric of Indonesian society may develop a stronger Islamic colour, however, that day is still a very long way into the future.

The number of people who undertake the Haj from Indonesia is a matter of public record. Moreover, amongst some leaders of the Islamic community in Indonesia it is also a matter for concern. The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately.

Whilst it is true that a number of cities and regencies in Indonesia have adopted sharia-style by-laws, only the Province of Aceh has been granted the right to implement sharia law, and that was granted only in the hope that it would end the secessionist movement in that province.

There is a vast difference between city by-laws and the judicial fabric of a nation. The situation in Tangerang is well known, where city by-laws exist which in practice mean that after dark, an unaccompanied woman can be arrested on suspicion of prostitution. This by-law was introduced by an Islamic conservative dominated city council and has caused much dissension within the community.There is by no means majority support within the Tangerang community for the current by-laws in that city.

Since before the last elections Islamic conservatives have been penetrating the bureacracy, the military, NGO's, and every level of politics, as well as organisations within universities.

Official Indonesian government figures quote only 6.5% of Muslims being able to be considered as conservatives, but that 6.5% has been making a concerted push for some years now to gain control of the government and administration of the country. It is expected that after the next Indonesian general elections there will be an increase in the level of Islamic influence in government, than is presently the case.

However, the possible implementation of nation-wide sharia law is not something that has even the smallest possibility of occurring, short of the disintegration of the country of Indonesia. Such a move would be contrary to the provisions of the constitution, and would result in a popular uprising.

In respect of the position of Majapahit in the history of Jawa, and the present day nation of Indonesia.

Again, I have not put forward my own opinion:- I have repeated the accepted academic position.
I suggest that a reading of:- Sejarah Nasional Indonesia-Poesponegoro & Notosusanto (Dep Pendidikan dan Kebudayaan)
and Kebudayaan Jawa-Koentjaraningrat (Balai Pusaka)

may assist in providing a slightly better understanding of this phase of Javanese history. Koenjaraningrat could well prove of value in other respects, also.

The keris is not a man.

It is a symbol of man.

Man was created by God, and God gave man his soul.

The keris was created by man.

Man is not able to create a soul.

To compare a creation of man with a creation of God is something that some people could deem to verge on blasphemy.

The keris is a cultural icon, created by man. Under some conditions, and for some people it can be believed to contain a spiritual force, however, this spiritual force is not a constant for all people.

Where a keris is the pusaka of a kinship group, for members of that group, the keris can act as the agent that brings together past custodians of the keris, and the present custodian, and links all present members of the kinship group.

However, for any person who is outside that kinship group, the keris is only a piece of metal.

In other words, the pusaka keris only has spiritual power for those within the kinship group.

Clearly, it is not the keris which has spiritual power, but the spiritual force within the keris called into existence by the belief of the members of the kinship group.

For those who believe that a keris has some particular power , this power can be talismanic (tuah), or it can be spiritual (isi).In either case the power can only exist when it is believed to exist by man.

I would liken this to the spirit that may exist in a shrine, or other holy places. Man has built the shrine, and by faith has called a presence into the shrine.

For a non-believer , there is no presence in the shrine---it is simply a pile of stones.But for the believer, the spiritual force within the shrine can provide spiritual sustenance.

Within Javanese society it is sometimes believed that a particular keris may be bringing somebody bad luck. Often a dukun will be called to remove the spirit bringing the bad luck, from the keris. If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

Within my experience, I know of nobody who has accepted the custody of a "bad luck" keris recieving any bad luck along with the keris.

The talismanic power of a keris, and the spiritual power of a keris are totally separable from the physical entity of the keris, and both depend completely upon the belief of the person who has custody of the keris.

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 01:36 AM

This discussion is not make me angry. I wish my English was better. This is good for practice and talk about keris. Thank you for patience and understanding.

Pak Nechesh I did not mean to say you would stop to feed your keris. I only meant to say that if you start you should continue. I am sorry for not understanding.

Last night I spend time to research more this animism as religion and as part of other religion. I ask a good friend who is Catholic about this and he suggest to look at exorcism. So I found some interest things that sound much like some parts of animism to me. What are thoughts of others? This I found in the Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm

Exorcism is the act of driving out, or warding off, demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.

According to Catholic belief demons or fallen angels retain their natural power, as intelligent beings, of acting on the material universe, and using material objects and directing material forces for their own wicked ends.

This is what Pak Maisey say about animism

Animism may be briefly defined as:-

A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe.

To me this animism belief and Catholic belief sound the same. What is wrong with my understanding?

I have not time yet to read Pak Maisey current writing. Please give me time as this post I do when not on line.

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 02:03 AM

Pak Mudi, without digressing into a full blown discussion about theology. which i think would be inappropriate in this forum, Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. Therefore only an evil spirit would be able to inhabit a keris. This is not an acceptance of animism, it is a rejection. This is not how animism is dealt with in Indonesia. While there are cetainly bad spirits there are also good and helpful ones. It is heretical in the catholic faith to listen to or use these spirits to help you in your life regardless of how you might personally view the goodness of any particular spirt. This is just brushing on the differences, but i hope it helps your understanding.

Thank you Alan for a very clear, concise, no nonsense explanation on the magickal and mystical relationship of keris and man.

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 02:31 AM

I just read Lei Shen Dao and I am happy that someone could explain in good English. May I also say when drawing keris to keep it out and away from your face and pointed away from your face. In Indonesia we often give a silent ask for permission to the keris to remove it from sarong.

Pak Maisey, with respect I do not think I can discuss Islam in Indonesia with you more. Again with no anger but with respect anthropologists are not trained to know what is in the hearts and minds of Indonesian Muslims.

You wrote

The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately.

Pak if I not understand what you write I am sorry but you have already commented publicly and you suggest the reasons Muslims in Indonesia pilgrim Haj is not for devotion to Islam. I will not take offending if you explain what you suggest. If you open the door you should be able to go through it.

Back to keris you write about bad luck keris. You write

If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

I think you mean to write

When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not know that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

Pak Nechesh wrote

Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive.

You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen?

Thank you for your patience.

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen?

Thank you for your patience.

What you describe here is not animism or at least a good Catholic would never understand it as such. As i mentioned before, this is not the place for theological debate and a discussion on the deeper meanings of the holy trinity would only hijack this thread beyond recognition. The concept of the spirit of a monotheistic omnipotent GOD should not be confused with the concept of many various, seperate and independent spirits inhabiting, inbodying and driving the material world. If you are really interested in continuing this line of discussion i would be more than happy to do so in private messages so as not to disrupt the board.

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2006, 03:26 AM

Pak Mudi, I can understand perfectly your reluctance for further discussion of Islam with me, however, I would make the point that I have yet to encounter such reluctance amongst my many Muslim friends, most especially when the work of Muslim anthropologists is under discussion.

As I have previously remarked:- I do not tender my remarks as personal opinion, but as representative of the body of academic opinion. That opinion is comprised of not only work generated by western anthropologists, but also work generated by anthropologists who are adherents of Islam, including Indonesians.

I do understand that your misspelling of Al Qur'an was simply a typographical error, and could not possibly have been intended as any form of slight.Still, one would expect any good Muslim to at least be able to spell the name of the Book containing the word of the Prophet. Most especially so when that good Muslim, a native speaker of Indonesian , and his own area dialect, is able to consistently demonstrate such excellence in the spelling of English words.

As to my reluctance to comment further on the reasons for some people undertaking the haj, I have implied nothing, other than my respect for the sensitivities involved in this matter.

If you care to draw conclusions based upon what I have not said, that is your prerogative, but please do not accuse me of things I have neither said nor implied.

Regarding my comments on "bad luck" keris.

I said precisely what I meant to say.

No more : no less.

And I back my statement with a very long and intensely personal relationship with the world of the keris.

Pak Mudi, I respect your right to hold whatever opinions you may wish to hold, and I assure you that I have not the slightest desire to alter any of your opinions.

On the other hand, I try, in so far as I am able, not to present my personal opinions but rather to present statements which can be substantiated with evidence.

Where I am unavoidably required to present an opinion based upon my own study or experience, I am prepared to present this experience, or provide references to allow substantiation of my statements.

Regretably, a Forum of the nature of this one is not the place to present long and convoluted logical arguments or endless bibliographies, however, if you care to contact me privately I will be delighted to provide you with references that may better help you to understand some of the matters I have addressed.

Andrew · 13th July 2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is indeed true that when discussion strays into the areas of politics and religion, it strays into areas that can be sensitive, and there is potential to give offence, which can lead to unpleasantness.

A brief revue of all that has been written above will clearly demonstrate that nobody who has yet commented on religion in this thread has transgressed in even the slightest degree.

May this remain so.

Please allow me to be very clear about this:-
In my earlier post I was not putting forward personal opinion.

The matters of the nature of animism, and of the nature of Islam in Jawa, are not matters in which personal opinion can carry very much weight.

The nature of Islam in Jawa has been well documented by both Indonesian and foreign anthropologists.

Where an individual`s opinion is at variance with the body of academic evidence, that opinion may be respected as the individual's right, but it cannot be given any credence.

The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Indonesia are not yet ready to implement Islamic laws. They are still in the teaching phase (dakwah), and not yet at the stage of approval (ijabah).

If we look at Islam at the time of Prophet Muhammed, when he was in Mecca he spent his time there teaching. He tried to spread the faith amongst the people and to have them submit to and worship one God. At this time the society in Mecca was unruly and disordered. The Prophet tried to bring order to this chaos, but the laws of Islam had not yet been set down.In fact, at this time the Prophet did not forbid the drinking of alchohol. People were still permitted to drink alchohol, but they were not permitted to be drunk when they were praying. (Al Qur'an 4.42).

However, after the flight to Medinah, Muhammed set down the laws, and made regulations that became known as the "Medinah Charter", which set forth rules of government, and importantly gave Christians and Jews the right to practice their own religions.

Over time, the fabric of Indonesian society may develop a stronger Islamic colour, however, that day is still a very long way into the future.

The number of people who undertake the Haj from Indonesia is a matter of public record. Moreover, amongst some leaders of the Islamic community in Indonesia it is also a matter for concern. The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately.

Whilst it is true that a number of cities and regencies in Indonesia have adopted sharia-style by-laws, only the Province of Aceh has been granted the right to implement sharia law, and that was granted only in the hope that it would end the secessionist movement in that province.

There is a vast difference between city by-laws and the judicial fabric of a nation. The situation in Tangerang is well known, where city by-laws exist which in practice mean that after dark, an unaccompanied woman can be arrested on suspicion of prostitution. This by-law was introduced by an Islamic conservative dominated city council and has caused much dissension within the community.There is by no means majority support within the Tangerang community for the current by-laws in that city.

Since before the last elections Islamic conservatives have been penetrating the bureacracy, the military, NGO's, and every level of politics, as well as organisations within universities.

Official Indonesian government figures quote only 6.5% of Muslims being able to be considered as conservatives, but that 6.5% has been making a concerted push for some years now to gain control of the government and administration of the country. It is expected that after the next Indonesian general elections there will be an increase in the level of Islamic influence in government, than is presently the case.

However, the possible implementation of nation-wide sharia law is not something that has even the smallest possibility of occurring, short of the disintegration of the country of Indonesia. Such a move would be contrary to the provisions of the constitution, and would result in a popular uprising.

In respect of the position of Majapahit in the history of Jawa, and the present day nation of Indonesia.

Again, I have not put forward my own opinion:- I have repeated the accepted academic position.
I suggest that a reading of:- Sejarah Nasional Indonesia-Poesponegoro & Notosusanto (Dep Pendidikan dan Kebudayaan)
and Kebudayaan Jawa-Koentjaraningrat (Balai Pusaka)

may assist in providing a slightly better understanding of this phase of Javanese history. Koenjaraningrat could well prove of value in other respects, also.

The keris is not a man.

It is a symbol of man.

Man was created by God, and God gave man his soul.

The keris was created by man.

Man is not able to create a soul.

To compare a creation of man with a creation of God is something that some people could deem to verge on blasphemy.

The keris is a cultural icon, created by man. Under some conditions, and for some people it can be believed to contain a spiritual force, however, this spiritual force is not a constant for all people.

Where a keris is the pusaka of a kinship group, for members of that group, the keris can act as the agent that brings together past custodians of the keris, and the present custodian, and links all present members of the kinship group.

However, for any person who is outside that kinship group, the keris is only a piece of metal.

In other words, the pusaka keris only has spiritual power for those within the kinship group.

Clearly, it is not the keris which has spiritual power, but the spiritual force within the keris called into existence by the belief of the members of the kinship group.

For those who believe that a keris has some particular power , this power can be talismanic (tuah), or it can be spiritual (isi).In either case the power can only exist when it is believed to exist by man.

I would liken this to the spirit that may exist in a shrine, or other holy places. Man has built the shrine, and by faith has called a presence into the shrine.

For a non-believer , there is no presence in the shrine---it is simply a pile of stones.But for the believer, the spiritual force within the shrine can provide spiritual sustenance.

Within Javanese society it is sometimes believed that a particular keris may be bringing somebody bad luck. Often a dukun will be called to remove the spirit bringing the bad luck, from the keris. If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

Within my experience, I know of nobody who has accepted the custody of a "bad luck" keris recieving any bad luck along with the keris.

The talismanic power of a keris, and the spiritual power of a keris are totally separable from the physical entity of the keris, and both depend completely upon the belief of the person who has custody of the keris.

Thank you.

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 06:16 AM

Thank you again Pak Maisey and Pak Nechesh. I think Pak Andrew want this discussion finish. I am sorry I could not say better what I mean. More fun if we talk about keris.

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 01:30 AM

Very interesting information Lei Shen Dao. Thanks for the calendar link. Very helpful.
Looks like today is a good day!

Lei Shen Dao · 13th July 2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Very interesting information Lei Shen Dao. Thanks for the calendar link. Very helpful.
Looks like today is a good day!

My pleasure

Yeap, a good day indeed

Lei Shen Dao · 13th July 2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

just read Lei Shen Dao and I am happy that someone could explain in good English

Dear Mudi
You are very kind with me. My English are very bad..that is a sad truth, lol.

Thanks for the info, I believe your conversation with A. G. Maisey was very helpfull for all of us keris enthousiasts here.

I thank you both.

rasdan · 14th July 2006, 07:35 AM

Hi all,

I would like to thank Mr. Maisey for his explaination. I belive what he mentioned is very true. If we believe a palace is haunted. I will become haunted.. for that particular individual.

Just to add. From what i read, other than an object for "storing" spirits, keris are also an object of storing prayers. Perhaps this is a post islamic view or shift of view. For instance, wayang also was given some islamic messages replacing the original hindu concept. I'm a bit sceptic about this, but i just fond an article describing how water can actually store messages.

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twili...arch_emoto.htm

Can metal store messages?

That's one long lasting hard drive.

13th July 2006, 01:00 AM	#1
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Bill http://home.wanadoo.nl/javas/Kalende.../05mei2006.htm Above is the adress of a Javanese calendar. The "good" days to offer incense to your keris are the "kliwon" days. Every kliwon follows every five days. The "kemis kliwon" is the best day for this offerring. The kliwons and especially the kemis kliwon, are the days where the spirits are more close to humans and to earth, a kind of "opening" to the spiritual dimension. Offerring is good to be done late at night until 12 at midnight. Avoid the light when the keris is out of the seath, especially the sun. Spirits are yin endities and they don't love yang. Cemetaries aren't good places to have your keris with you. Don't have it near a woman in her menstrual days (period days) or when you make love. Be quiet and no noise too. When you unseath it drew the sheath not the blade, when you put it back do the opposite and move the blade to the seath calmly. Don't use too much oil. Some drops of it every 3-4 months are ok. Try to communicate with it with your heart and your mind, think about it, take care of it. It will understand even if you don't use Indonesian language. Of course there are other thinks too. All these concerns only the "live" keris. But... Not every old keris has a spirit in it. There aren't too many keris/tombak with power and spirit left. There are some, but not too many as most people think. A keris may be very old but the spirit may have left the blade if the owner didn't took care of it. Of course, as many times the members here said, every old keris most of the times has it's "history" but most of the times this a "selling truth" not the truth itself. You have to be a very sensitive individual to sense it, or to have someone with the abillity to do it. Many claims to be experts in this, few are the "real thing". You may give a lot of money for example for an old "huddan mas" pamor (to help you make a fortune) that is quite rare to find a reall one nowdays and to be an empty sell, and you may pay 300 or 400 us dollars or euro (or even less) for a "wos wutah" and you may be lucky and have a "live" blade. If you have jodoh with a keris, with God's help it will find the way to you Take care.

13th July 2006, 01:22 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	It is indeed true that when discussion strays into the areas of politics and religion, it strays into areas that can be sensitive, and there is potential to give offence, which can lead to unpleasantness. A brief revue of all that has been written above will clearly demonstrate that nobody who has yet commented on religion in this thread has transgressed in even the slightest degree. May this remain so. Please allow me to be very clear about this:- In my earlier post I was not putting forward personal opinion. The matters of the nature of animism, and of the nature of Islam in Jawa, are not matters in which personal opinion can carry very much weight. The nature of Islam in Jawa has been well documented by both Indonesian and foreign anthropologists. Where an individual`s opinion is at variance with the body of academic evidence, that opinion may be respected as the individual's right, but it cannot be given any credence. The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Indonesia are not yet ready to implement Islamic laws. They are still in the teaching phase (dakwah), and not yet at the stage of approval (ijabah). If we look at Islam at the time of Prophet Muhammed, when he was in Mecca he spent his time there teaching. He tried to spread the faith amongst the people and to have them submit to and worship one God. At this time the society in Mecca was unruly and disordered. The Prophet tried to bring order to this chaos, but the laws of Islam had not yet been set down.In fact, at this time the Prophet did not forbid the drinking of alchohol. People were still permitted to drink alchohol, but they were not permitted to be drunk when they were praying. (Al Qur'an 4.42). However, after the flight to Medinah, Muhammed set down the laws, and made regulations that became known as the "Medinah Charter", which set forth rules of government, and importantly gave Christians and Jews the right to practice their own religions. Over time, the fabric of Indonesian society may develop a stronger Islamic colour, however, that day is still a very long way into the future. The number of people who undertake the Haj from Indonesia is a matter of public record. Moreover, amongst some leaders of the Islamic community in Indonesia it is also a matter for concern. The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately. Whilst it is true that a number of cities and regencies in Indonesia have adopted sharia-style by-laws, only the Province of Aceh has been granted the right to implement sharia law, and that was granted only in the hope that it would end the secessionist movement in that province. There is a vast difference between city by-laws and the judicial fabric of a nation. The situation in Tangerang is well known, where city by-laws exist which in practice mean that after dark, an unaccompanied woman can be arrested on suspicion of prostitution. This by-law was introduced by an Islamic conservative dominated city council and has caused much dissension within the community.There is by no means majority support within the Tangerang community for the current by-laws in that city. Since before the last elections Islamic conservatives have been penetrating the bureacracy, the military, NGO's, and every level of politics, as well as organisations within universities. Official Indonesian government figures quote only 6.5% of Muslims being able to be considered as conservatives, but that 6.5% has been making a concerted push for some years now to gain control of the government and administration of the country. It is expected that after the next Indonesian general elections there will be an increase in the level of Islamic influence in government, than is presently the case. However, the possible implementation of nation-wide sharia law is not something that has even the smallest possibility of occurring, short of the disintegration of the country of Indonesia. Such a move would be contrary to the provisions of the constitution, and would result in a popular uprising. In respect of the position of Majapahit in the history of Jawa, and the present day nation of Indonesia. Again, I have not put forward my own opinion:- I have repeated the accepted academic position. I suggest that a reading of:- Sejarah Nasional Indonesia-Poesponegoro & Notosusanto (Dep Pendidikan dan Kebudayaan) and Kebudayaan Jawa-Koentjaraningrat (Balai Pusaka) may assist in providing a slightly better understanding of this phase of Javanese history. Koenjaraningrat could well prove of value in other respects, also. The keris is not a man. It is a symbol of man. Man was created by God, and God gave man his soul. The keris was created by man. Man is not able to create a soul. To compare a creation of man with a creation of God is something that some people could deem to verge on blasphemy. The keris is a cultural icon, created by man. Under some conditions, and for some people it can be believed to contain a spiritual force, however, this spiritual force is not a constant for all people. Where a keris is the pusaka of a kinship group, for members of that group, the keris can act as the agent that brings together past custodians of the keris, and the present custodian, and links all present members of the kinship group. However, for any person who is outside that kinship group, the keris is only a piece of metal. In other words, the pusaka keris only has spiritual power for those within the kinship group. Clearly, it is not the keris which has spiritual power, but the spiritual force within the keris called into existence by the belief of the members of the kinship group. For those who believe that a keris has some particular power , this power can be talismanic (tuah), or it can be spiritual (isi).In either case the power can only exist when it is believed to exist by man. I would liken this to the spirit that may exist in a shrine, or other holy places. Man has built the shrine, and by faith has called a presence into the shrine. For a non-believer , there is no presence in the shrine---it is simply a pile of stones.But for the believer, the spiritual force within the shrine can provide spiritual sustenance. Within Javanese society it is sometimes believed that a particular keris may be bringing somebody bad luck. Often a dukun will be called to remove the spirit bringing the bad luck, from the keris. If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it. Within my experience, I know of nobody who has accepted the custody of a "bad luck" keris recieving any bad luck along with the keris. The talismanic power of a keris, and the spiritual power of a keris are totally separable from the physical entity of the keris, and both depend completely upon the belief of the person who has custody of the keris.

13th July 2006, 01:36 AM	#3
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	This discussion is not make me angry. I wish my English was better. This is good for practice and talk about keris. Thank you for patience and understanding. Pak Nechesh I did not mean to say you would stop to feed your keris. I only meant to say that if you start you should continue. I am sorry for not understanding. Last night I spend time to research more this animism as religion and as part of other religion. I ask a good friend who is Catholic about this and he suggest to look at exorcism. So I found some interest things that sound much like some parts of animism to me. What are thoughts of others? This I found in the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm Exorcism is the act of driving out, or warding off, demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice. According to Catholic belief demons or fallen angels retain their natural power, as intelligent beings, of acting on the material universe, and using material objects and directing material forces for their own wicked ends. This is what Pak Maisey say about animism Animism may be briefly defined as:- A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe. To me this animism belief and Catholic belief sound the same. What is wrong with my understanding? I have not time yet to read Pak Maisey current writing. Please give me time as this post I do when not on line.

13th July 2006, 02:03 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, without digressing into a full blown discussion about theology. which i think would be inappropriate in this forum, Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. Therefore only an evil spirit would be able to inhabit a keris. This is not an acceptance of animism, it is a rejection. This is not how animism is dealt with in Indonesia. While there are cetainly bad spirits there are also good and helpful ones. It is heretical in the catholic faith to listen to or use these spirits to help you in your life regardless of how you might personally view the goodness of any particular spirt. This is just brushing on the differences, but i hope it helps your understanding. Thank you Alan for a very clear, concise, no nonsense explanation on the magickal and mystical relationship of keris and man.

13th July 2006, 02:31 AM	#5
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	I just read Lei Shen Dao and I am happy that someone could explain in good English. May I also say when drawing keris to keep it out and away from your face and pointed away from your face. In Indonesia we often give a silent ask for permission to the keris to remove it from sarong. Pak Maisey, with respect I do not think I can discuss Islam in Indonesia with you more. Again with no anger but with respect anthropologists are not trained to know what is in the hearts and minds of Indonesian Muslims. You wrote The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately. Pak if I not understand what you write I am sorry but you have already commented publicly and you suggest the reasons Muslims in Indonesia pilgrim Haj is not for devotion to Islam. I will not take offending if you explain what you suggest. If you open the door you should be able to go through it. Back to keris you write about bad luck keris. You write If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it. I think you mean to write When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not know that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it. Pak Nechesh wrote Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen? Thank you for your patience.

13th July 2006, 03:26 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Pak Mudi, I can understand perfectly your reluctance for further discussion of Islam with me, however, I would make the point that I have yet to encounter such reluctance amongst my many Muslim friends, most especially when the work of Muslim anthropologists is under discussion. As I have previously remarked:- I do not tender my remarks as personal opinion, but as representative of the body of academic opinion. That opinion is comprised of not only work generated by western anthropologists, but also work generated by anthropologists who are adherents of Islam, including Indonesians. I do understand that your misspelling of Al Qur'an was simply a typographical error, and could not possibly have been intended as any form of slight.Still, one would expect any good Muslim to at least be able to spell the name of the Book containing the word of the Prophet. Most especially so when that good Muslim, a native speaker of Indonesian , and his own area dialect, is able to consistently demonstrate such excellence in the spelling of English words. As to my reluctance to comment further on the reasons for some people undertaking the haj, I have implied nothing, other than my respect for the sensitivities involved in this matter. If you care to draw conclusions based upon what I have not said, that is your prerogative, but please do not accuse me of things I have neither said nor implied. Regarding my comments on "bad luck" keris. I said precisely what I meant to say. No more : no less. And I back my statement with a very long and intensely personal relationship with the world of the keris. Pak Mudi, I respect your right to hold whatever opinions you may wish to hold, and I assure you that I have not the slightest desire to alter any of your opinions. On the other hand, I try, in so far as I am able, not to present my personal opinions but rather to present statements which can be substantiated with evidence. Where I am unavoidably required to present an opinion based upon my own study or experience, I am prepared to present this experience, or provide references to allow substantiation of my statements. Regretably, a Forum of the nature of this one is not the place to present long and convoluted logical arguments or endless bibliographies, however, if you care to contact me privately I will be delighted to provide you with references that may better help you to understand some of the matters I have addressed.

13th July 2006, 06:16 AM	#9
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Thank you again Pak Maisey and Pak Nechesh. I think Pak Andrew want this discussion finish. I am sorry I could not say better what I mean. More fun if we talk about keris.

13th July 2006, 01:30 AM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Very interesting information Lei Shen Dao. Thanks for the calendar link. Very helpful. Looks like today is a good day!

14th July 2006, 07:35 AM	#13
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi all, I would like to thank Mr. Maisey for his explaination. I belive what he mentioned is very true. If we believe a palace is haunted. I will become haunted.. for that particular individual. Just to add. From what i read, other than an object for "storing" spirits, keris are also an object of storing prayers. Perhaps this is a post islamic view or shift of view. For instance, wayang also was given some islamic messages replacing the original hindu concept. I'm a bit sceptic about this, but i just fond an article describing how water can actually store messages. http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twili...arch_emoto.htm Can metal store messages? That's one long lasting hard drive.