Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 3rd May 2024, 06:46 PM

We went down the wrong road:
the portrait is of 1st Earl of Strafford (a supporter of Charles 1st) who was executed at Tower Hill in 1641.
His son, the 2nd Earl (died 1695) was a good friend of James 2nd and he owned the Shotley Bridge sword which passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693 - 1750) who had the caskets made.
There is a better image of the 1st earl portrait which looks like the original; the portrait inserted earlier in this thread has been over-painted adding a dog and moving the helmet; see attached.
The sword now looks like a Pappenheimer to me but I am uncertain. Nice tournament armour.

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2024, 07:11 PM

Well noted Keith, now that I see the shells it does look like a Pappenheimer.
Norman speaks to the often practiced 'overpainting', not to mention later 'restorations'. It really does set the mind to wondering just how much license did come into play.

Peter Hudson · 28th May 2024, 06:07 PM

The association of this individual with the fortunes and subsequent downfall of Catholics and thus the eventual outcome of The Jacobites are mysterious indeed.

Popular feeling ran very high against the Earl, and the King, though he had assured Strafford that his life should be spared, abandoned him when it came to the point, and on the 10th signed the commission for giving the royal assent to the Bill. The Earl was beheaded on Tower Hill, 12th May 1641, and met his death with dignity and composure. He was 48 years of age. In private life the Earl of Strafford was a devoted husband and father, a true friend and a man of high cultivation and feeling. Many of his faults of temper arose from his shattered health, the result of agonizing accessions of inherited gout. His personal habits were naturally simple, but to sustain the honour of the King "before the eyes of a wild and rude people," he maintained almost regal magnificence, with a retinue of fifty servants and a body-guard of one hundred horse splendidly mounted and accoutred. The ruins of a princely mansion, begun by him, but never completed, may still be seen near Naas. In fact further research reveals 1633-1640
Thomas Wentworth (Black Tom) Earl of Strafford and Lord Deputy of Ireland builds his great house at Jigginstown, it would be an Irish Residence for Charles I, but alas Wentworth is recalled to London and loses his head before the roof goes on his great house. He was long known in the traditions of the Irish peasantry as "Black Tom."
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2024, 10:34 PM

Interesting stuff on the complexities of Great Britain in this period, and as noted Thomas Wentworth was sent to rule in Ireland in 1633 by Charles I. While he is noted as being of admirable being in this context, his sobriquet "Black Tom" was from the Irish subjects for not only his despotic rule, but his dark demeanor and insistent wearing of somber Puritan clothing.

IMO, the style of the sword in the 'pappenheimer' manner likely comes from the profound Dutch influences brought to England in these times. The German blade makers ostensibly from Solingen were actually recruited in Holland for the Hounslow enterprise. This indirectly of course set the stage for the later Shotley Bridge venture.

Again, interesting connections, the son of 'Black Tom' (2nd Earl of Strafford) had a Shotley sword passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693-1750)
which of course has to do with the 'casket' (s) mentioned by Keith earlier.

Every sword has its own legacy, history and dynamics which present most fascinating perspective on historic events and persons. They are literally icons of history and the most exciting way to study it!

Triarii · 30th May 2024, 11:32 AM

Short version as the website ate my longer reply.
There are multiple versions of the Strafford portrait, with the Pappenheimer one owned by the NT (after Van Dyke, if I recall correctly) and the other by the NPG (school 0f Van Dyke). The NPG have another with him facing to the right, but it shows the same sword hilt in both. It also appears in Van Dykes full length portrait of Charles I in armour. I suspect that it is therefore a prop supplied by the artist, along with the cuirassier armour. That armour was rarely used in England, with only one regiment and a few troops of horse using it in the ECW, but it usefully displays the martial connections of the sitter, being used even as late as the early C18th.

To be fair to AVB Norman, there are good depictions of eg Irish Hilts in portraits of Colonels Booth, Massey and Hutchinson and a Type 91 hilt in Rembrandts 'Self portrait with Saskia', which can also be seen on contemporary tomb monuments in Bristol and Gloucester cathedrals.

urbanspaceman · 31st May 2024, 06:11 PM

Just as a hint of a suggestion: I always type/compose my longer responses in MS Word, then copy and paste into the forum, as too many times the website eats my efforts.
On to the issue at hand:
Artist's 'Props', now there is an obvious reason that never crossed my mind... thank-you.
Of course, getting important folk to sit still for lengthy periods on an often basis was never easy was it/is it?
I have abandoned all efforts to unravel the family lineage involved in the Wentworth/Woodhouse/Watson affair: simply way too many variations on the names and titles to achieve coherence. I do think I got it right except the caskets were made post 1750 by the latest WWW incumbent.
All good fun until your brain melts.
Thank-you Folks.

Brian Moffatt · 16th November 2024, 08:36 PM

Way off beam I know Keith,
But just for the information of anyone researching "Shotley"... for some weird reason the posting on my blog on the subject no longer appears to be accessible to search engines.... so best way in is just to go straight to the front page and scroll down.
We now have what I believe to be a Medieval Derwent valley anvil... it came from very close to Hexham Abbey... fascinating thing with a cross and other detail on the side.... must have been put in when the metal was still malleable.
I'll get it up online in due course....
We are still working on the descriptions for the Museum... a truly massive task,
So currently access is rather limited since we have personally to talk the way through all of the exhibits.... which takes well over an hour.
Hopefully by next year we will have it all on tablets..
All the Best,
Brian Moffatt

3rd May 2024, 06:46 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	errors and answers We went down the wrong road: the portrait is of 1st Earl of Strafford (a supporter of Charles 1st) who was executed at Tower Hill in 1641. His son, the 2nd Earl (died 1695) was a good friend of James 2nd and he owned the Shotley Bridge sword which passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693 - 1750) who had the caskets made. There is a better image of the 1st earl portrait which looks like the original; the portrait inserted earlier in this thread has been over-painted adding a dog and moving the helmet; see attached. The sword now looks like a Pappenheimer to me but I am uncertain. Nice tournament armour. Attached Images

28th May 2024, 06:07 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	The association of this individual with the fortunes and subsequent downfall of Catholics and thus the eventual outcome of The Jacobites are mysterious indeed. Popular feeling ran very high against the Earl, and the King, though he had assured Strafford that his life should be spared, abandoned him when it came to the point, and on the 10th signed the commission for giving the royal assent to the Bill. The Earl was beheaded on Tower Hill, 12th May 1641, and met his death with dignity and composure. He was 48 years of age. In private life the Earl of Strafford was a devoted husband and father, a true friend and a man of high cultivation and feeling. Many of his faults of temper arose from his shattered health, the result of agonizing accessions of inherited gout. His personal habits were naturally simple, but to sustain the honour of the King "before the eyes of a wild and rude people," he maintained almost regal magnificence, with a retinue of fifty servants and a body-guard of one hundred horse splendidly mounted and accoutred. The ruins of a princely mansion, begun by him, but never completed, may still be seen near Naas. In fact further research reveals 1633-1640 Thomas Wentworth (Black Tom) Earl of Strafford and Lord Deputy of Ireland builds his great house at Jigginstown, it would be an Irish Residence for Charles I, but alas Wentworth is recalled to London and loses his head before the roof goes on his great house. He was long known in the traditions of the Irish peasantry as "Black Tom." Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 28th May 2024 at 06:22 PM.

31st May 2024, 06:11 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	response Just as a hint of a suggestion: I always type/compose my longer responses in MS Word, then copy and paste into the forum, as too many times the website eats my efforts. On to the issue at hand: Artist's 'Props', now there is an obvious reason that never crossed my mind... thank-you. Of course, getting important folk to sit still for lengthy periods on an often basis was never easy was it/is it? I have abandoned all efforts to unravel the family lineage involved in the Wentworth/Woodhouse/Watson affair: simply way too many variations on the names and titles to achieve coherence. I do think I got it right except the caskets were made post 1750 by the latest WWW incumbent. All good fun until your brain melts. Thank-you Folks. Attached Images

3rd May 2024, 07:11 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Well noted Keith, now that I see the shells it does look like a Pappenheimer. Norman speaks to the often practiced 'overpainting', not to mention later 'restorations'. It really does set the mind to wondering just how much license did come into play.

28th May 2024, 10:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Interesting stuff on the complexities of Great Britain in this period, and as noted Thomas Wentworth was sent to rule in Ireland in 1633 by Charles I. While he is noted as being of admirable being in this context, his sobriquet "Black Tom" was from the Irish subjects for not only his despotic rule, but his dark demeanor and insistent wearing of somber Puritan clothing. IMO, the style of the sword in the 'pappenheimer' manner likely comes from the profound Dutch influences brought to England in these times. The German blade makers ostensibly from Solingen were actually recruited in Holland for the Hounslow enterprise. This indirectly of course set the stage for the later Shotley Bridge venture. Again, interesting connections, the son of 'Black Tom' (2nd Earl of Strafford) had a Shotley sword passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693-1750) which of course has to do with the 'casket' (s) mentioned by Keith earlier. Every sword has its own legacy, history and dynamics which present most fascinating perspective on historic events and persons. They are literally icons of history and the most exciting way to study it!

30th May 2024, 11:32 AM	#5
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 120	Short version as the website ate my longer reply. There are multiple versions of the Strafford portrait, with the Pappenheimer one owned by the NT (after Van Dyke, if I recall correctly) and the other by the NPG (school 0f Van Dyke). The NPG have another with him facing to the right, but it shows the same sword hilt in both. It also appears in Van Dykes full length portrait of Charles I in armour. I suspect that it is therefore a prop supplied by the artist, along with the cuirassier armour. That armour was rarely used in England, with only one regiment and a few troops of horse using it in the ECW, but it usefully displays the martial connections of the sitter, being used even as late as the early C18th. To be fair to AVB Norman, there are good depictions of eg Irish Hilts in portraits of Colonels Booth, Massey and Hutchinson and a Type 91 hilt in Rembrandts 'Self portrait with Saskia', which can also be seen on contemporary tomb monuments in Bristol and Gloucester cathedrals.

16th November 2024, 08:36 PM	#7
Brian Moffatt Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 7	Way off beam I know Keith, But just for the information of anyone researching "Shotley"... for some weird reason the posting on my blog on the subject no longer appears to be accessible to search engines.... so best way in is just to go straight to the front page and scroll down. We now have what I believe to be a Medieval Derwent valley anvil... it came from very close to Hexham Abbey... fascinating thing with a cross and other detail on the side.... must have been put in when the metal was still malleable. I'll get it up online in due course.... We are still working on the descriptions for the Museum... a truly massive task, So currently access is rather limited since we have personally to talk the way through all of the exhibits.... which takes well over an hour. Hopefully by next year we will have it all on tablets.. All the Best, Brian Moffatt