Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong

BluErf · 9th July 2006, 06:31 AM

As to whether the golden ball in the mouth is due to Chinese influence, I wouldn't rule that out, but a significant difference would be that the statues in China have manes, so are overtly lions, while in this keris' case, the creature has no mane.

The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

Lei Shen Dao · 10th July 2006, 12:23 AM

Hi guys

I have been told that if this kind of keris is powerful (from the esoteric point of view

) you should put a little ball of gold in the mouth in order to keep the keris happy and quiet and ready to serve you better.

Just what I've heard.

Mudi · 10th July 2006, 02:24 PM

Maybe this keris is Bali? Ukiran is not right for Bali, but all else looks Bali to me, and 13 luk too! Barong singa is lion, not tiger. Chinese influence on keris Malay or keris di Majapahit has never been proven, but why not could it be? Chinese merchants were here by 800 AD, maybe earlier, and all over Malaysia, and Indonesia, it is clear their influence.

Yes, a 13 luk keris barong singa is a powerful keris, so be careful. Give it lots of oil and always keep the point up, when out of its gandar, never down, and don?t sniff it. If you can smell its oil, OK, but never hold a keris like this to your nose to enjoy its smell. I think too if you change the ukiran to ukiran di Bali, it will be a happier keris!

BluErf · 10th July 2006, 03:16 PM

Hi Mudi,

Greetings and welcome!

The ukiran is not original. The ukiran that came with the keris was East Javanese, but one with a dark band burnt round it with a hot solder.

The patra on that ukiran was not very nice, so I replaced it with this spare Solo ukiran I have (temporarily only). I'm just waiting for the right East Javanese ukiran to come along, but it would probably be a long wait because the peksi on this keris is very very long; all my other E. Javanese ukiran could not sit properly on the keris.

This keris is most probably not from Bali, because it is too small.

May I ask as to why we should refrain from sniffing at a keris Singa Barong? Or is that for kerises in general?

Mudi · 11th July 2006, 12:30 AM

Good morning

About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry.

If the peksi is long, that sounds more like Bali. Ukiran in Bali are usually bigger than in Java. In Bali keris can be small. There are keris there made for women or younger man.

kai · 11th July 2006, 09:46 AM

Hello Kai Wee,

I think we should be seriously considering the possibility of a Balinese origin for this nice piece. Could you post a pic of the peksi, please?

BTW, what's the blade/peksi length? (KampungNet is slow again...)

Regards,
Kai

Lei Shen Dao · 11th July 2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

Good morning

About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry.

Mudi hi

Nice to hear it from another person too.
Some Javanese people say that it is bad to smell it (his oil and incence) because it is considered like stealling the "food" from it.

BluErf · 11th July 2006, 04:36 PM

The blade length is 13.85 inches (35cm)
The peksi length is 3 inches (7.6cm)

Dimensionally, I've not seen any old Balinese keris that is this small. Most Balinese kerises are around 16 - 18 inches long. The sheath is East Javanese and not Balinese. The original hilt (not shown) was also East Javanese. Even the mendak (though a cheap one with glass beads) is not the typical Balinese or Central Javanese type.

Compare the sheath to the other Balinese kerises that have been posted in the forum, or in Kampungnet (for those with decent access speed.

). You can see that they are related, but very different.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

And then, compare the greneng style on this singa barong to a Balinese/Lombok keris. Again, there is significant stylistic differences.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

I am confident that this keris is not Balinese. My doubt lies only in the age of the piece, and whether it may have been modified.

Bill M · 11th July 2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

The ball under the paw signifies that the guardian is male.

You will note that the other guardian has a baby under her paw and is female.

BluErf · 11th July 2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

The ball under the paw signifies that the guardian is male.

You will note that the other guardian has a baby under her paw and is female.

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

Rick · 11th July 2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2006, 11:19 PM

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 03:40 AM

Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 04:08 AM

Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Yes, the good condition of the rondha and the kikik (I suppose he does look more kikik than singa barong) compared to the corrosion of the sor-soran struck me immediately when I first saw the keris. The ganja could be a replacement, and I also thought the kikik could have been new parmor material welded onto an old blade. However, when I look at the pamor lines between the kikik and the rest of the blade, I do not see broken lines that would have suggested the welding of a separate piece to the blade. The maker could have made the keris and artificially corroded the sor-soran area, except for the kikik. Either way, it is a very interesting thing to ponder over.

This keris is not too expensive, and I don't have any information on it apart from what I have observed.

However, I wouldn't completely agree with the bit about "mostly get what we pay for". There are many examples of people paying too much for a keris, and people selling some of their great pieces too cheaply.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

Hmmm... does that mean the lion stole the pearl from a dragon?

9th July 2006, 06:31 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	As to whether the golden ball in the mouth is due to Chinese influence, I wouldn't rule that out, but a significant difference would be that the statues in China have manes, so are overtly lions, while in this keris' case, the creature has no mane. The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

10th July 2006, 12:23 AM	#2
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Hi guys I have been told that if this kind of keris is powerful (from the esoteric point of view ) you should put a little ball of gold in the mouth in order to keep the keris happy and quiet and ready to serve you better. Just what I've heard.

10th July 2006, 02:24 PM	#3
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Maybe this keris is Bali? Ukiran is not right for Bali, but all else looks Bali to me, and 13 luk too! Barong singa is lion, not tiger. Chinese influence on keris Malay or keris di Majapahit has never been proven, but why not could it be? Chinese merchants were here by 800 AD, maybe earlier, and all over Malaysia, and Indonesia, it is clear their influence. Yes, a 13 luk keris barong singa is a powerful keris, so be careful. Give it lots of oil and always keep the point up, when out of its gandar, never down, and don?t sniff it. If you can smell its oil, OK, but never hold a keris like this to your nose to enjoy its smell. I think too if you change the ukiran to ukiran di Bali, it will be a happier keris!

10th July 2006, 03:16 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Mudi, Greetings and welcome! The ukiran is not original. The ukiran that came with the keris was East Javanese, but one with a dark band burnt round it with a hot solder. The patra on that ukiran was not very nice, so I replaced it with this spare Solo ukiran I have (temporarily only). I'm just waiting for the right East Javanese ukiran to come along, but it would probably be a long wait because the peksi on this keris is very very long; all my other E. Javanese ukiran could not sit properly on the keris. This keris is most probably not from Bali, because it is too small. May I ask as to why we should refrain from sniffing at a keris Singa Barong? Or is that for kerises in general?

11th July 2006, 12:30 AM	#5
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Good morning About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry. If the peksi is long, that sounds more like Bali. Ukiran in Bali are usually bigger than in Java. In Bali keris can be small. There are keris there made for women or younger man.

11th July 2006, 09:46 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Kai Wee, I think we should be seriously considering the possibility of a Balinese origin for this nice piece. Could you post a pic of the peksi, please? BTW, what's the blade/peksi length? (KampungNet is slow again...) Regards, Kai

11th July 2006, 04:36 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The blade length is 13.85 inches (35cm) The peksi length is 3 inches (7.6cm) Dimensionally, I've not seen any old Balinese keris that is this small. Most Balinese kerises are around 16 - 18 inches long. The sheath is East Javanese and not Balinese. The original hilt (not shown) was also East Javanese. Even the mendak (though a cheap one with glass beads) is not the typical Balinese or Central Javanese type. Compare the sheath to the other Balinese kerises that have been posted in the forum, or in Kampungnet (for those with decent access speed. ). You can see that they are related, but very different. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php And then, compare the greneng style on this singa barong to a Balinese/Lombok keris. Again, there is significant stylistic differences. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php I am confident that this keris is not Balinese. My doubt lies only in the age of the piece, and whether it may have been modified.

11th July 2006, 11:19 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo. However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded. In this world, we mostly get what we pay for. I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

12th July 2006, 03:40 AM	#13
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

12th July 2006, 04:08 AM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.