Revolutionary War era clasp knife

[M ELEY]

Actually, I had a heads-up from another well respected Forum member of my error just prior to Rick pointing out my monumental mistake. The strange thing is I do frequent the Ethno side, but I guess I just never saw one of these East Indian types before. Jeez! Well, it won't be my first or last error in judgement (I remember getting a lesson on a piece I thought was colonial American, but ended up being 19th c. African.) Sigh, but I am glad that this Forum exists to point out such misjudgments and I do appreciate everyone who came in on this one.

I sill stick to the fact, though, that this isn't an obvious mistake! Many of the early clasps/jack knives highly resemble this style. In at least one book I have of 'American Revolution' sketches of weapons, this type above is erroneously shown. Several of those in Neumann's are likewise possibly questionable.

Thank you Jim and Radboud for your comments and also good questions. Could a piece like this still have seen maritime use? So very similar to the penny knives of Europeans and certainly of a use on merchant ships (cargo lists and journal entries requiring quill pens and such), it seems very plausible. Not to mention the long maritime history of India, the associations with the British and Dutch EIC, piracy off the coast of Malabar, etc, etc. Still not what I had hoped for, but an interesting piece that has generated some great conversation! Thanks!

[Rick]

The first folding knives date to the Iron Age 500 or 600 BCE approximately.
The spike on these knives would probably only be useful for breaking knots in twine or the blade for cutting a plug of tobacco.
Certainly, more than one was brought back from the Far East by sailors and used in a different way than originally intended. Many of these had the body that held the stylus and knife made from Ivory, thus making them even more desirable to own.

Wikipedia has a large section on the use of these tools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

[M ELEY]

Thank you, Rick, for this excellent info and I also forgot to thank you for the positive ID on this one. I'm not feeling as bad about it now. Lesson learned and I think this is at least an old one.

[Jim McDougall]

In ongoing research on this intriguing old knife/stylus, there are certain inherent qualities that render it having maritime possibility, despite not being an item specifically for such context. The mere fact that these were clearly diffused through SE Asia, Malaysia and East Indies of course suggests they were indeed aboard trade vessels through these networks.

Aboard ships, especially pirate and privateer vessels with their own autonomy rather than stenrict regulation, the clever eye of the sailor, regardless of what flag he sailed under, was keen and innovative. These would likely have been seen as a 'novelty', and primarily as a folding knife alone......however the stylus, in essence a spike, while having utilitarian measure......would be deadly if used as a close quarters weapon. Not as much in combat, as in stealth, a stab in key location would be mortal. Naturally, these kinds of matters would escape any sort of record as the typical chroniclers of this history would not usually have such information.

Carl Sagan once observed, it is not so much the study of written history that needs attention, but that of 'unwritten' history, where many answers and secrets are to be found. This is perhaps badly paraphrased, but it is the idea I took from it.

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim and thank you for your valuable perspective. I'm feeling a lot less 'bummed out' about it now. Many of the items in my collection range from odd ethnographic pieces to New World colonial, bearing in mind that such items indeed were a part of the maritime world of trading, piracy and exotic 'goods'. I'll definitely do more research, though, the next time I decide to step out of my comfort zone (big edgy things) to buy something different (little folding edgy things)

[Jim McDougall]

It seems funny that in the 'maritime' world these knives, remarkably of the exact same configuration with blade and awl are indeed called sailors knives.
The awl is apparently referred to as a 'marlin' spike (clearly for the big game fish) and similar have appeared as pre-Civil War from notable collections with blacksmith forged iron parts.

These same type knives are still being produced, for some reason nicknamed the '1757'.

Is it not possible that such knives aboard vessels might have been seen by these Chettiars (accountants with palm leaf pages) in trade ports, and adopted the form as convenient. Most scribes seem to have been in static locations, so why would a folding stylus be required, unless they were in transit and keeping records?

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I have to tell you about the Marlin Spike:
first the fish was named after the tool and not vice-versa.
Second, Marlin is a contraction of Marling.
Marling is the term for rope work, as rope was made from Marl.
Obviously a mandatory tool shipboard.
On a similar note, I recently sold a WW2 German SAK handled trench knife (see pic) that featured a canvas and leather stitching tool which I found curious as I've not seen examples of soldiers repairing such materials, but then I've led a sheltered life.
The other feature was a cork screw: convivial imbibing round the night fire perhaps.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

Hi Jim,

The knife you showed is also a lontar scribe's knife.
Attached a pic of my small collection of these knives.
Never believe descriptions auction houses provide!
Regards,
Detlef