Revolutionary War era clasp knife

Radboud · 1st March 2024, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think you guys are going down the wrong road with this one.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=19

Perfect match, well spotted Rick.

Rick · 1st March 2024, 04:48 AM

I'm a bit surprised as we have seen many examples of this utensil over the years in the Ethno Forum.

I think it is interesting that the Sheeps Foot pattern is seen on almost all modern folding rigging knives. Pretty hard to stab someone (or oneself) with that blade profile.

Gilkerson also shows (p.130) in Boarders Away a sheath knife with the point cut off to a 90 degree angle.

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2024, 12:13 PM

Most interesting in seeing this curious example revealed as a scribes knife from these Indian regions!
My question would be, is it not feasible that sailors in ports of call in the East might have encountered such items in their trade experiences, and seen potential use in their on board circumstances?

Obviously the blade alone would be useful for many of the things done by sailors (including whittling etc.) in other than required tasks involving the rigging and elements of same. While not something ascribed (no pun intended) to the normal items of maritime use, something I personally have noticed in the pawn shops of ports of call, is the affinity of sailors for exotica and novelties from their many visits to unusual places.

On that basis, this knife, and perhaps others like it, might fall into the category of maritime novelty, if only tenuously. Whatever the case, it is a most interesting example of an item not commonly seen, but certainly well known as per described by Rick.

Just how late did the use of palm leaves as a medium for record keeping continue in these areas from India into other SE Asian regions? If it ceased in say, first part of 19th c. with printing, paper etc. could this form of these knives (with the fixture at top and fluting) be deemed 18th c.?

Also, with this type of pointed blade, rather than the blunted or rebated blades of the rigging tools described, would this kind of knife either with use of the blade or even the 'spike' not become a 'weapon of opportunity?

M ELEY · 2nd March 2024, 04:16 AM

Actually, I had a heads-up from another well respected Forum member of my error just prior to Rick pointing out my monumental mistake. The strange thing is I do frequent the Ethno side, but I guess I just never saw one of these East Indian types before. Jeez! Well, it won't be my first or last error in judgement (I remember getting a lesson on a piece I thought was colonial American, but ended up being 19th c. African.) Sigh, but I am glad that this Forum exists to point out such misjudgments and I do appreciate everyone who came in on this one.

I sill stick to the fact, though, that this isn't an obvious mistake! Many of the early clasps/jack knives highly resemble this style. In at least one book I have of 'American Revolution' sketches of weapons, this type above is erroneously shown. Several of those in Neumann's are likewise possibly questionable.

Thank you Jim and Radboud for your comments and also good questions. Could a piece like this still have seen maritime use? So very similar to the penny knives of Europeans and certainly of a use on merchant ships (cargo lists and journal entries requiring quill pens and such), it seems very plausible. Not to mention the long maritime history of India, the associations with the British and Dutch EIC, piracy off the coast of Malabar, etc, etc. Still not what I had hoped for, but an interesting piece that has generated some great conversation! Thanks!

Rick · 2nd March 2024, 05:31 AM

The first folding knives date to the Iron Age 500 or 600 BCE approximately.
The spike on these knives would probably only be useful for breaking knots in twine or the blade for cutting a plug of tobacco.
Certainly, more than one was brought back from the Far East by sailors and used in a different way than originally intended. Many of these had the body that held the stylus and knife made from Ivory, thus making them even more desirable to own.

Wikipedia has a large section on the use of these tools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

M ELEY · 2nd March 2024, 11:05 PM

Thank you, Rick, for this excellent info and I also forgot to thank you for the positive ID on this one. I'm not feeling as bad about it now. Lesson learned and I think this is at least an old one.

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2024, 05:16 PM

In ongoing research on this intriguing old knife/stylus, there are certain inherent qualities that render it having maritime possibility, despite not being an item specifically for such context. The mere fact that these were clearly diffused through SE Asia, Malaysia and East Indies of course suggests they were indeed aboard trade vessels through these networks.

Aboard ships, especially pirate and privateer vessels with their own autonomy rather than stenrict regulation, the clever eye of the sailor, regardless of what flag he sailed under, was keen and innovative. These would likely have been seen as a 'novelty', and primarily as a folding knife alone......however the stylus, in essence a spike, while having utilitarian measure......would be deadly if used as a close quarters weapon. Not as much in combat, as in stealth, a stab in key location would be mortal. Naturally, these kinds of matters would escape any sort of record as the typical chroniclers of this history would not usually have such information.

Carl Sagan once observed, it is not so much the study of written history that needs attention, but that of 'unwritten' history, where many answers and secrets are to be found. This is perhaps badly paraphrased, but it is the idea I took from it.

2nd March 2024, 04:16 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Foiled again! Actually, I had a heads-up from another well respected Forum member of my error just prior to Rick pointing out my monumental mistake. The strange thing is I do frequent the Ethno side, but I guess I just never saw one of these East Indian types before. Jeez! Well, it won't be my first or last error in judgement (I remember getting a lesson on a piece I thought was colonial American, but ended up being 19th c. African.) Sigh, but I am glad that this Forum exists to point out such misjudgments and I do appreciate everyone who came in on this one. I sill stick to the fact, though, that this isn't an obvious mistake! Many of the early clasps/jack knives highly resemble this style. In at least one book I have of 'American Revolution' sketches of weapons, this type above is erroneously shown. Several of those in Neumann's are likewise possibly questionable. Thank you Jim and Radboud for your comments and also good questions. Could a piece like this still have seen maritime use? So very similar to the penny knives of Europeans and certainly of a use on merchant ships (cargo lists and journal entries requiring quill pens and such), it seems very plausible. Not to mention the long maritime history of India, the associations with the British and Dutch EIC, piracy off the coast of Malabar, etc, etc. Still not what I had hoped for, but an interesting piece that has generated some great conversation! Thanks!

1st March 2024, 04:48 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm a bit surprised as we have seen many examples of this utensil over the years in the Ethno Forum. I think it is interesting that the Sheeps Foot pattern is seen on almost all modern folding rigging knives. Pretty hard to stab someone (or oneself) with that blade profile. Gilkerson also shows (p.130) in Boarders Away a sheath knife with the point cut off to a 90 degree angle.

1st March 2024, 12:13 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Most interesting in seeing this curious example revealed as a scribes knife from these Indian regions! My question would be, is it not feasible that sailors in ports of call in the East might have encountered such items in their trade experiences, and seen potential use in their on board circumstances? Obviously the blade alone would be useful for many of the things done by sailors (including whittling etc.) in other than required tasks involving the rigging and elements of same. While not something ascribed (no pun intended) to the normal items of maritime use, something I personally have noticed in the pawn shops of ports of call, is the affinity of sailors for exotica and novelties from their many visits to unusual places. On that basis, this knife, and perhaps others like it, might fall into the category of maritime novelty, if only tenuously. Whatever the case, it is a most interesting example of an item not commonly seen, but certainly well known as per described by Rick. Just how late did the use of palm leaves as a medium for record keeping continue in these areas from India into other SE Asian regions? If it ceased in say, first part of 19th c. with printing, paper etc. could this form of these knives (with the fixture at top and fluting) be deemed 18th c.? Also, with this type of pointed blade, rather than the blunted or rebated blades of the rigging tools described, would this kind of knife either with use of the blade or even the 'spike' not become a 'weapon of opportunity?

2nd March 2024, 05:31 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The first folding knives date to the Iron Age 500 or 600 BCE approximately. The spike on these knives would probably only be useful for breaking knots in twine or the blade for cutting a plug of tobacco. Certainly, more than one was brought back from the Far East by sailors and used in a different way than originally intended. Many of these had the body that held the stylus and knife made from Ivory, thus making them even more desirable to own. Wikipedia has a large section on the use of these tools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

2nd March 2024, 11:05 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, Rick, for this excellent info and I also forgot to thank you for the positive ID on this one. I'm not feeling as bad about it now. Lesson learned and I think this is at least an old one.

3rd March 2024, 05:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In ongoing research on this intriguing old knife/stylus, there are certain inherent qualities that render it having maritime possibility, despite not being an item specifically for such context. The mere fact that these were clearly diffused through SE Asia, Malaysia and East Indies of course suggests they were indeed aboard trade vessels through these networks. Aboard ships, especially pirate and privateer vessels with their own autonomy rather than stenrict regulation, the clever eye of the sailor, regardless of what flag he sailed under, was keen and innovative. These would likely have been seen as a 'novelty', and primarily as a folding knife alone......however the stylus, in essence a spike, while having utilitarian measure......would be deadly if used as a close quarters weapon. Not as much in combat, as in stealth, a stab in key location would be mortal. Naturally, these kinds of matters would escape any sort of record as the typical chroniclers of this history would not usually have such information. Carl Sagan once observed, it is not so much the study of written history that needs attention, but that of 'unwritten' history, where many answers and secrets are to be found. This is perhaps badly paraphrased, but it is the idea I took from it.