Revolutionary War era clasp knife

M ELEY · 27th February 2024, 09:24 PM

Thank you, Jim, for responding on this one. I was also under the assumption that the word 'jack knife' came from the nautical term 'Jack Tar'. Of coure, it makes sense that the original meaning to the name is much older, as these simple knife-types could span back many generations before Age of Fighting Sail. I'm just wondering when the first 'folder' came about versus a traditional fixed blade. Middle Ages? I'll have to do some research there.

I'm in full 'stubborn' agreement that these little examples were used by 'tars' are ships. The thought of banning such a versatile and tiny tool seems moot for the most part. First off, in the event of a mutiny, a good belay pin, grappling hook, oakum calker, sharpened fid or marlin pike/gaff would do just as well in a pinch. Secondly, a 3" bladed folding knife would never stand up to Royal Marines armed with muskets or midshipmen armed with fighting dirks. There'd be no contest there. Interestingly, most of the mutinies I've read of usually either involve the higher ranks, who already have access to weapons or the locker (Spencer Christian, anyone?

) or the lower ranks seeking to 'lure' the officers/captain into a corner in ambush, in which case, even a bucket or piece of rope will do the trick. In any case, I'm happy with this little clasp and think it is a good representative piece for the collection.

Jim McDougall · 29th February 2024, 01:05 PM

Capn,
On the topic of small knives such as 'jack knives', navaja and such, it was not about use in combat situations, but more at a baser level with personal disputes.
Such weapons were personal, typically concealed or considered utility items however likely to be used in the kinds of situations arising between men in confined circumstances. Case in point, the 'shiv' or 'shank' in prisons.

These personal small knives might be obtained in almost any number of situations by sailors, and as such might have come from virtually many forms circulating in the many cultural spheres these men experienced.
Like most maritime tools and weapons, there were not certain regulations or standards with these, but certain conventions and requirements existed obviously for functionality and durability.

The folding knife indeed has been around long into earlier history, but that needs of course far more research in a more specific discussion.

These are just my thoughts on this, and again, what I consider a most intriguing little knife, and its possible manner of use if found in a maritime context.

Radboud · 29th February 2024, 08:42 PM

What a great historical object M Eley, not many of these utility knives survive this long, given their hard working life. To top it, the ocean environment is especially rough on gear.

I agree that this was almost certainly a sailors' knife, the marlin spike being equally as useful to a sailor as the blade (for un-doing knots and other tasks where a bit of leverage helps).

Given the extra decorative features on the knife it's possible that it belonged to a more seniour member of the (civilian?) crew and hence why it managed to survive this long.

Rick · 1st March 2024, 03:24 AM

I think you guys are going down the wrong road with this one.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=19

Radboud · 1st March 2024, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think you guys are going down the wrong road with this one.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=19

Perfect match, well spotted Rick.

Rick · 1st March 2024, 04:48 AM

I'm a bit surprised as we have seen many examples of this utensil over the years in the Ethno Forum.

I think it is interesting that the Sheeps Foot pattern is seen on almost all modern folding rigging knives. Pretty hard to stab someone (or oneself) with that blade profile.

Gilkerson also shows (p.130) in Boarders Away a sheath knife with the point cut off to a 90 degree angle.

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2024, 12:13 PM

Most interesting in seeing this curious example revealed as a scribes knife from these Indian regions!
My question would be, is it not feasible that sailors in ports of call in the East might have encountered such items in their trade experiences, and seen potential use in their on board circumstances?

Obviously the blade alone would be useful for many of the things done by sailors (including whittling etc.) in other than required tasks involving the rigging and elements of same. While not something ascribed (no pun intended) to the normal items of maritime use, something I personally have noticed in the pawn shops of ports of call, is the affinity of sailors for exotica and novelties from their many visits to unusual places.

On that basis, this knife, and perhaps others like it, might fall into the category of maritime novelty, if only tenuously. Whatever the case, it is a most interesting example of an item not commonly seen, but certainly well known as per described by Rick.

Just how late did the use of palm leaves as a medium for record keeping continue in these areas from India into other SE Asian regions? If it ceased in say, first part of 19th c. with printing, paper etc. could this form of these knives (with the fixture at top and fluting) be deemed 18th c.?

Also, with this type of pointed blade, rather than the blunted or rebated blades of the rigging tools described, would this kind of knife either with use of the blade or even the 'spike' not become a 'weapon of opportunity?

27th February 2024, 09:24 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, Jim, for responding on this one. I was also under the assumption that the word 'jack knife' came from the nautical term 'Jack Tar'. Of coure, it makes sense that the original meaning to the name is much older, as these simple knife-types could span back many generations before Age of Fighting Sail. I'm just wondering when the first 'folder' came about versus a traditional fixed blade. Middle Ages? I'll have to do some research there. I'm in full 'stubborn' agreement that these little examples were used by 'tars' are ships. The thought of banning such a versatile and tiny tool seems moot for the most part. First off, in the event of a mutiny, a good belay pin, grappling hook, oakum calker, sharpened fid or marlin pike/gaff would do just as well in a pinch. Secondly, a 3" bladed folding knife would never stand up to Royal Marines armed with muskets or midshipmen armed with fighting dirks. There'd be no contest there. Interestingly, most of the mutinies I've read of usually either involve the higher ranks, who already have access to weapons or the locker (Spencer Christian, anyone?) or the lower ranks seeking to 'lure' the officers/captain into a corner in ambush, in which case, even a bucket or piece of rope will do the trick. In any case, I'm happy with this little clasp and think it is a good representative piece for the collection.

1st March 2024, 03:24 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Ceylon I think you guys are going down the wrong road with this one. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=19

29th February 2024, 01:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Capn, On the topic of small knives such as 'jack knives', navaja and such, it was not about use in combat situations, but more at a baser level with personal disputes. Such weapons were personal, typically concealed or considered utility items however likely to be used in the kinds of situations arising between men in confined circumstances. Case in point, the 'shiv' or 'shank' in prisons. These personal small knives might be obtained in almost any number of situations by sailors, and as such might have come from virtually many forms circulating in the many cultural spheres these men experienced. Like most maritime tools and weapons, there were not certain regulations or standards with these, but certain conventions and requirements existed obviously for functionality and durability. The folding knife indeed has been around long into earlier history, but that needs of course far more research in a more specific discussion. These are just my thoughts on this, and again, what I consider a most intriguing little knife, and its possible manner of use if found in a maritime context.

29th February 2024, 08:42 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	What a great historical object M Eley, not many of these utility knives survive this long, given their hard working life. To top it, the ocean environment is especially rough on gear. I agree that this was almost certainly a sailors' knife, the marlin spike being equally as useful to a sailor as the blade (for un-doing knots and other tasks where a bit of leverage helps). Given the extra decorative features on the knife it's possible that it belonged to a more seniour member of the (civilian?) crew and hence why it managed to survive this long.

1st March 2024, 04:48 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm a bit surprised as we have seen many examples of this utensil over the years in the Ethno Forum. I think it is interesting that the Sheeps Foot pattern is seen on almost all modern folding rigging knives. Pretty hard to stab someone (or oneself) with that blade profile. Gilkerson also shows (p.130) in Boarders Away a sheath knife with the point cut off to a 90 degree angle.

1st March 2024, 12:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Most interesting in seeing this curious example revealed as a scribes knife from these Indian regions! My question would be, is it not feasible that sailors in ports of call in the East might have encountered such items in their trade experiences, and seen potential use in their on board circumstances? Obviously the blade alone would be useful for many of the things done by sailors (including whittling etc.) in other than required tasks involving the rigging and elements of same. While not something ascribed (no pun intended) to the normal items of maritime use, something I personally have noticed in the pawn shops of ports of call, is the affinity of sailors for exotica and novelties from their many visits to unusual places. On that basis, this knife, and perhaps others like it, might fall into the category of maritime novelty, if only tenuously. Whatever the case, it is a most interesting example of an item not commonly seen, but certainly well known as per described by Rick. Just how late did the use of palm leaves as a medium for record keeping continue in these areas from India into other SE Asian regions? If it ceased in say, first part of 19th c. with printing, paper etc. could this form of these knives (with the fixture at top and fluting) be deemed 18th c.? Also, with this type of pointed blade, rather than the blunted or rebated blades of the rigging tools described, would this kind of knife either with use of the blade or even the 'spike' not become a 'weapon of opportunity?